What color is this Doe?

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MamaSheepdog

MamaSheepdog

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Despite google searches, I can't find pics of seal or sable rex. From the written description, I am guessing this is a seal doe? The brown on her flanks shows up prominently in the photo, in real life she looks almost black.
IMG_3338.JPG
 
http://www.chini-mini.com/himalayan.htm
For mini rex

I would say that is a seal, if it looks black and the brown is most noticable on the bottom. A sable would have lighter shading on the main body with darker shading on the ears, flanks, feet and underbelly. I think I'm describing it right. http://natalieshobe.tripod.com/id21.html

I could sure use that bunny in my quest for sables. What do the parents look like?
 
Well, now I'm confused... looked at the seal and sable pics, Sky, and she is dark like the seal, but has the shading of the sable. Probably a dark sable then- seal sable? I think I need to post better pics.

The buck is a black, and the doe is an opal. The G.G. dam (top) of the doe is a broken seal.
 
Seal is simply 2 sable genes so having some sable shading should not be odd. Sables are made by crossing himi (rew can be used but then you can tell the base color) lines with sable lines to keep getting rabbits with 1 sable genes and 1 himi gene rather than 2 sable genes which makes the rabbit too dark and the color called seal. So a seal is a dark sable.
 
akane":2qbkxzwy said:
Seal is simply 2 sable genes so having some sable shading should not be odd. Sables are made by crossing himi (rew can be used but then you can tell the base color) lines with sable lines to keep getting rabbits with 1 sable genes and 1 himi gene rather than 2 sable genes which makes the rabbit too dark and the color called seal. So a seal is a dark sable.
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Standard Rexes don't have himis, at least not as a recognized variety. You can get a sable from a chin light, but that's what I'm trying to figure out how to do. Sable and seal are hard to come by colors in Standard Rex.

__________ Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:45 pm __________

Cattle Cait":2qbkxzwy said:
I'd say sable, but that's just based off of seeing a friend's American Sables.
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Rex sables are much usually much darker than American sables.<br /><br />__________ Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:17 pm __________<br /><br />
MamaSheepdog":2qbkxzwy said:
Well, now I'm confused... looked at the seal and sable pics, Sky, and she is dark like the seal, but has the shading of the sable. Probably a dark sable then- seal sable? I think I need to post better pics.

The buck is a black, and the doe is an opal. The G.G. dam (top) of the doe is a broken seal.
Click to expand...

What is the under color?

http://www.minkhollow.ca/MHF/doku.php?i ... x_standard Just a pict of Seal, none of sable.

Sable

Saddle color is to be an even, rich sepia brown, shading gradually to rich chestnut on the flanks. Head, ears, legs, and upper side of tail are to match the saddle. Chest color is to match the flanks. Color is to go well down the fur shaft, with undercolor to match shadings throughout. Ruby cast over eyes permissible.

Faults: Streaks; splotches; white hair(s); rusty tinge.
Seal

Saddle color is to be a rich, dark sepia, shading only to slightly paler on flanks, chest, and belly. Color is to go well down the fur shaft, with undercoat to match shadings throughout. Saddle color is to extend from nape of neck to the tail. (True seal is of the chinchilla line, not black and chocolate together)
 
There is the greatest book out on genetics i have ever had the pleasure of reading. It almost makes me understand how those things work.. ( almost... there are still some things that elude me)
The book is "It's easy as ABC About Bunny Colors" So well worth the $$ !

The seal, sable, chin, and himi gene are all variations of the c gene... so it would not be unlikely to show up in various breedings. As certain colors are selected for... the various modifiers accumulate and make it 'more likely' that a specific range of color will be produced.

I know there are members here that have a Lot more genetic experience than i have...Please correct me if i am giving out incorrect information.
 
Standard Rexes don't have himis, at least not as a recognized variety. You can get a sable from a chin light, but that's what I'm trying to figure out how to do. Sable and seal are hard to come by colors in Standard Rex.
Click to expand...

In most breeds himi is used since you can still see the base color but other colors can be used to dilute a sable. The light chin gene is the sable gene. It's just a different name for it. If you look at articles that list the gene letter designation for dark and light chin and the letter designation on sites that list chin and sable they are the same. That's why you can make sables out of light chins. If you get light chin plus rew you have sable because it is the sable gene.

If the sables are much darker in standard rex than any other color it's possible most are genetically seals and the difference is simply a case of modifiers. If there is no good color to breed in (due to lack of himi lines) to keep 1 sable gene instead of 2 they may have just bred for a light version of 2 sable genes and a dark version of 2 sable genes and decided to call the darker one seal even though in other breeds and genetically speaking both would be seal. These things do happen when people breed for colors without understanding the genetics. Different names get given to the same color and different colors get given the same name due to some modifiers that make it a little lighter or darker than usual for that genotype. I also find it annoying that we call a rabbit with 2 sable genes a seal when it's the same gene.
 
Hmm she looks like a super dark poorly colored castor to me....parents of her if you know would be a big help. Also if she's had any kids what color they were might help. I've had super dark castors like this when dealing with tri/harlequins.
 
akane":1tpgiywf said:
Standard Rexes don't have himis, at least not as a recognized variety. You can get a sable from a chin light, but that's what I'm trying to figure out how to do. Sable and seal are hard to come by colors in Standard Rex.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I was wondering how one would get a seal or sable out of a black/opal pairing. I suppose the black could carry chld if it was from a chin line, and the opal carries it from the seal line. Because if the black didn't carry it, wouldn't the self C be dominant? Or maybe that black carries for c REW?
Usually they say most seals are genetically sables, just darker sables. I want to get the kind of sable with the darker points on face, ears, and feet. I have a thread in genetics (sorry to hijack your thread but its related). I have a buck I know is chld, both sire and dam are chld. There have been "beige" and self chins out of his sire. I have never seen a himi Standard Rex. So I just pair him with a REW?<br /><br />__________ Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:13 pm __________<br /><br />
SMR":1tpgiywf said:
Hmm she looks like a super dark poorly colored castor to me....parents of her if you know would be a big help. Also if she's had any kids what color they were might help. I've had super dark castors like this when dealing with tri/harlequins.
Click to expand...


It's a black/opal pairing, and the opal has seal in the ped.

I would like to know the undercoat color. Opal is a castor dilute.
 
it is a very even coloring, although that sepia color is reminiscent of sable, judging by her size (adult or close to it) I would be learning toward Havana JMO though.
 
I was wondering how one would get a seal or sable out of a black/opal pairing.
Click to expand...
All C locus genes are fully recessive to C which is full color. You can have a C c(chl) or C c(chd) and all you will see is a black rabbit, chestnut/castor rabbit, opal rabbit, etc... It's when you cross them that you will get some rabbit who carry 2 of the other genes besides full color. Then the most dominant one shows up so a c(chd)c(chl) will look like a chin or mostly like one. c(chl) (light chin and sable depending on your preference of wording) is partially dominant and can mess with other colors making lighter chins. That's also why c(chl)c(chl) is seal while c(chl)c(ch) -sable/light chin + himi- or c(chl)c -sable/light chin + rew- are sable. It's the same as breeding 2 blacks can get you a chocolate because chocolate is recessive or 2 chestnuts can get you a black because self is recessive but more complicated due to the increased gene combinations and partial dominance of light chin/sable.

This person has some very interesting chinchilla and sable info especially in the reference section. It is on mini rex but like she says it applies to all colors. You just change the name of some colors to match the breed.
http://www.chini-mini.com/index.htm
I actually just sent her an email about that odd light grey rabbit I have since nowhere else have I found good info on chins with a genetic base other than black and the whole seal and sable issue.
 
I thought I would add a picture of a doe who is out of a black otter mother
who carries REW, and a black tortoise shell father who carries chd.

I believe that her genotype is aa B_ chdc D_ Ee

The color that I have listed on her pedigree is Seal-self chinchilla

__________ Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:09 am __________

Another thing that I wanted to mention is that while
"Standard Rexes don't have himis, at least not as a recognized variety"
they DO have the "ch" gene in a recognized variety. I's called "Californian"

you can see a beautiful example of one here

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RexRabbitList/
 

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Thanks for all the input, everybody... even though the genetic discussions are making my head hurt! I need to get that book, RR! :lol:

I'll get some more pics of her today, including undercolor, and post those.

As for her being a poorly marked castor SMR- when she was a tiny kit there was no color difference on her belly- the only noticeable brown was on her ears and head, whereas the castor I have from another litter had distinctly marked belly, ears, etc. I'm not disagreeing with you (I know nothing, lol!), just providing a little history for more clarity.

Sky, I don't feel you are "hi-jacking my thread"! What helps one of us will hopefully benefit us all.

Caroline, your bunny is very pretty! I am always eager to see what turns up in the nestbox, whether of bunnies or kittens. I can only imagine how much more you must anticipate your litters since you are working so diligently for certain colors!
 
caroline":232cc0rq said:
Another thing that I wanted to mention is that while
"Standard Rexes don't have himis, at least not as a recognized variety"
they DO have the "ch" gene in a recognized variety. I's called "Californian"

you can see a beautiful example of one here
Click to expand...

Ah yes, thank you. I have seen one on the National Rex website, but I have yet to Find anyone breeding them. I am wondering if the color is no longer being bred, it seems almost to be a mystically elusive color.<br /><br />__________ Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:43 pm __________<br /><br />
Bramble Hedge":232cc0rq said:
it is a very even coloring, although that sepia color is reminiscent of sable, judging by her size (adult or close to it) I would be learning toward Havana JMO though.
Click to expand...



Does Havana translate into a different color name for Rex, or is it an unrecognized color? My breeder/mentor just culls unrecognized colors, doesn't even sell them as pets, so I don't see many of them. It's neat to learn the color names from other breeds, like chestnut agouti for castor.
 
I LOVE the varieties of color that rabbits have.
I've decided NOT to let myself be limited by the concept of "recognized" since I'm not currently showing I figure that I can please myself. The last time that I had rabbits, about 24 years ago, I had never SEEN some of the colors that I'm getting now. Amber [A_bbC_D_E_[ wasn't recognized then, but it is now. Neither were any of the otter colors [At_ __ C_ __ E_] so I'm enjoying getting to know them.

The Tortoise Shell colors[aa __ C_ __ ee] are NOT recognized in the Standard Rex, but they ARE in the Mini-rex, kinda strange if you ask me. I'm not really sure exactly what/how these colors get recognized. I know there's some kind of presentation at the annual ARBA convention, and then I think voting happens. But I'm not really clear about all of it. Who gets to vote? What the criteria are?...

I really like ALL the Agouti colors. In Rex they are called: Castor, Amber, Opal & Lynx. Also Chincilla & then the chocolate, blue & lilac chin colors are NOT recognized. I've never seen the lilac chin but do Have chocolate and blue[called squirrel in some breeds]

I also have a beautiful black silver martin doe[At_ B_ chd_ D_ E_] and looking forward to some chocolate, blue and lilac silver martins. None are recognized.

I'm looking forward the reds that will be coming from the torts of my torts with my castors. Not sure Ican recognized the difference between red and aqmber yet though. I believe that red is supposed to have that color on it's belly, but that may not happen if the rabbit doesn't carry the wide band genes. I'd like to know more about that/
 

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