All C locus genes are fully recessive to C which is full color. You can have a C c(chl) or C c(chd) and all you will see is a black rabbit, chestnut/castor rabbit, opal rabbit, etc... It's when you cross them that you will get some rabbit who carry 2 of the other genes besides full color. Then the most dominant one shows up so a c(chd)c(chl) will look like a chin or mostly like one. c(chl) (light chin and sable depending on your preference of wording) is partially dominant and can mess with other colors making lighter chins. That's also why c(chl)c(chl) is seal while c(chl)c(ch) -sable/light chin + himi- or c(chl)c -sable/light chin + rew- are sable. It's the same as breeding 2 blacks can get you a chocolate because chocolate is recessive or 2 chestnuts can get you a black because self is recessive but more complicated due to the increased gene combinations and partial dominance of light chin/sable.

This person has some very interesting chinchilla and sable info especially in the reference section. It is on mini rex but like she says it applies to all colors. You just change the name of some colors to match the breed.
http://www.chini-mini.com/index.htm
I actually just sent her an email about that odd light grey rabbit I have since nowhere else have I found good info on chins with a genetic base other than black and the whole seal and sable issue.

I thought I would add a picture of a doe who is out of a black otter mother
who carries REW, and a black tortoise shell father who carries chd.

I believe that her genotype is aa B_ chdc D_ Ee

The color that I have listed on her pedigree is Seal-self chinchilla

__________ Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:09 am __________

Another thing that I wanted to mention is that while
"Standard Rexes don't have himis, at least not as a recognized variety"
they DO have the "ch" gene in a recognized variety. I's called "Californian"

you can see a beautiful example of one here

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RexRabbitList/

Thanks for all the input, everybody... even though the genetic discussions are making my head hurt! I need to get that book, RR!

I'll get some more pics of her today, including undercolor, and post those.

As for her being a poorly marked castor SMR- when she was a tiny kit there was no color difference on her belly- the only noticeable brown was on her ears and head, whereas the castor I have from another litter had distinctly marked belly, ears, etc. I'm not disagreeing with you (I know nothing, lol!), just providing a little history for more clarity.

Sky, I don't feel you are "hi-jacking my thread"! What helps one of us will hopefully benefit us all.

Caroline, your bunny is very pretty! I am always eager to see what turns up in the nestbox, whether of bunnies or kittens. I can only imagine how much more you must anticipate your litters since you are working so diligently for certain colors!

Ah yes, thank you. I have seen one on the National Rex website, but I have yet to Find anyone breeding them. I am wondering if the color is no longer being bred, it seems almost to be a mystically elusive color.

__________ Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:43 pm __________





Does Havana translate into a different color name for Rex, or is it an unrecognized color? My breeder/mentor just culls unrecognized colors, doesn't even sell them as pets, so I don't see many of them. It's neat to learn the color names from other breeds, like chestnut agouti for castor.

I LOVE the varieties of color that rabbits have.
I've decided NOT to let myself be limited by the concept of "recognized" since I'm not currently showing I figure that I can please myself. The last time that I had rabbits, about 24 years ago, I had never SEEN some of the colors that I'm getting now. Amber [A_bbC_D_E_[ wasn't recognized then, but it is now. Neither were any of the otter colors [At_ __ C_ __ E_] so I'm enjoying getting to know them.

The Tortoise Shell colors[aa __ C_ __ ee] are NOT recognized in the Standard Rex, but they ARE in the Mini-rex, kinda strange if you ask me. I'm not really sure exactly what/how these colors get recognized. I know there's some kind of presentation at the annual ARBA convention, and then I think voting happens. But I'm not really clear about all of it. Who gets to vote? What the criteria are?...

I really like ALL the Agouti colors. In Rex they are called: Castor, Amber, Opal & Lynx. Also Chincilla & then the chocolate, blue & lilac chin colors are NOT recognized. I've never seen the lilac chin but do Have chocolate and blue[called squirrel in some breeds]

I also have a beautiful black silver martin doe[At_ B_ chd_ D_ E_] and looking forward to some chocolate, blue and lilac silver martins. None are recognized.

I'm looking forward the reds that will be coming from the torts of my torts with my castors. Not sure Ican recognized the difference between red and aqmber yet though. I believe that red is supposed to have that color on it's belly, but that may not happen if the rabbit doesn't carry the wide band genes. I'd like to know more about that/

I agree that that is definitely a dark sable. A seal should almost be mistakable for a black, with NO noticeable shading as you see on the original rabbit. (Aside from the same fur bleaching/molt lines that you would see on even a solid colored rabbit.)

I believe someone is working on getting the silver martin recognized. Since I am showing, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to keep unrecognized colors in their barn, but I wouldn't cull them necessarily, I would sell them as pets if possible.
i prefer the agouti, I had a red male, not the best body type so he was culled, and my current breeding doe produced a nice amber, which the breeder kept. Unfortunately the castor male I have now has too much gray, so he will be culled. It would be nice to get some castors from her.

I am really waiting for this chin male to grow up, he has the chld gene, I really want some sables.

Today was overcast, so I took some more pics of Mysterious. I hope you can see her color more clearly!


Here is a closeup of her face:


Her belly:


Undercolor:


Tail:


This last photo was taken at night, in the bunnybarn w/ fluorescent lighting, with a flash:

I still think this is a extremely dark castor, She is however lacking the intermediate band, but does show "some" banding when you blow into her fur. Her belly is lighter as is her tail which means agouti. There is also a possibility that there is a steel gene there messing up the picture! Breed her to a self (black and not carrying for non extension ee) not chin, not anything shaded and then see what happens. You should get selfs (if she is out of a self or self carrier herself) and castors, no shadeds no steels etc. Whats happening is she is basically lacking the intermediate band colour which is the rufous colour you would see in a castor.

I just occurred to me to share another site that I love to browse when I have the time.
Renate, the owner, is very knowledgeable about rabbit genetics and often posts on the Yahoo rabbit genetics group.
You can search by different gene criteria, or you can just click "show all" and enjoy pix of 766 buns
You can even upload pix of your bunnies with their genetic color information. She really encourages anyone to share their pix.

http://www.rabbitcolors.info/int/en/index.html

I crashed my computer with that site a few days back lol The variation in shadeds is amazing. If everyone is reporting the correct genetics then there are many that overlap quite a bit. Even some of the selfs and agoutis overlap when you get enough genes on there to mask markings.

The colored belly does point more to agouti. She can't be seal or sable if agouti but if she carried either would have to be chin instead. There are some really dark chestnut/castor rabbits with steel on that rabbit colors site like this one which just has light shading in some places http://www.rabbitcolors.info/int/en/ent ... tml?id=788 .

What about Californian Rex? Isn't that a himi gene?