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This "don't raise victims" crap

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This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#1  Unread postby akane » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:09 pm


I keep seeing people on my FB posting these memes about not raising victims and with my past it upsets me to tears and often multiple tirades in the comments. There is some truth to it but not the way they think. They encourage teaching your kid to stand up for themselves. Stand up how? Verbally? That's really going to work. If I had stood alone verbally yelling things that would not get me suspended at the dozen people bullying me first they would have made fun of me, then everyone else would have laughed, and then they would have retaliated in some way that probably involved gum somewhere, me buying a new scientific calculator, or not having any homework to turn in. I did tell them to stop.... they hit me across the ribs while I stumbled past everyone else who were just staring until I was close enough to the door where a teacher was and that is where I never left for the rest of school breaks. So stand up by getting in fights or using abusive language? First I know someone who did that and they just kept having to fight right on through the school letting them graduate early. The second problem is you get suspended at minimum. We've now got our victims suspended, our bullies may or may not be suspended (at my school they got ice cream and sitting around doing nothing so they could work through their problems), some new converts to the bullying group cause it looks cool getting away with that, and a bunch of neutral people ignoring it until it happens to them. Our victims and bullies come back to school eventually. Well fighting gets you in trouble, reporting is tattling, weak, and not standing up for yourself, if the authority figures will even do anything which at my school they wouldn't, so you say nothing. You lock your jaw and you sit there until you can go home and cry. Day after day after day you get harassed with no recourse. Eventually with parents forcing them to school, teachers not protecting them because they are supposed to stand up for themselves while not allowed to do so in any way, and the bullies are running wild with no deterrent you get people showing up with weapons or committing suicide. Standing up for yourself leads to all the things we don't want and were attempting to prevent.

Let's try model 2. Parents 1. attempt to not raise bullies so we have a few less to deal with (of course if people didn't fail at this we wouldn't have any already), 2. attempt to teach their children to stand up for others, and 3.actually do something when bullying is found. One of the "victims" gets harassed by some bullies, several people step in to tell the bullies to stop which makes them back off because they don't want to face multiple people, the victim and maybe supporters report it to the teachers, and the teachers punish only the bully(ies). The victim feels protected and more confident, bullying does not look cool, and standing up to someone who is willing to break the rules and bully looks cooler. We convert several people to standing up for others instead of converting several people to be bullies. Repeat. We have less bullies, we have confident "victims", and we keep converting more people willing to help other people. No one gets suspended except those with bad intentions, bullying stops by peer pressure, punishments, and removal from the situation for those that don't respond, and the whole school learns a new way to exist in the world.

Don't raise children not to be victims. Raise children to stand up for victims and we won't have any.
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#2  Unread postby Zass » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:52 pm


Unfortunately, my experience in school also involved teachers who were bullying students. :(

My English teacher was the worst, as she had also convinced the principle that I was trying to convert students to satanism, because I played Dungeons&Dragons.
Seriously.
It sounds funny now, but it's not when you are already a socially awkward kid with a developing avoidant personality disorder.

I paid fines repeatedly and had my drivers license suspended due to not being able to force myself to attend school as often as the state would prefer. (More then three unexcused absences in a year.)

Parents (and step parents) were too drunk to care, and I paid my own fines, so it didn't matter at all to them. :roll:

__________Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:58 pm __________

A co worker has a nephew lost to suicide due to bullying. :weep:

It makes me really hate the memes that state that kids shouldn't be protected from bullies, " because I went through it, and it made me tougher." Or some such nonsense.

Lets take into account that a lot of easily victimized children (but certainly not all!) start by being neglected or bullied by their parents FIRST.

Those who can't stand up for themselves (most often for purely psychological reasons, outside of their control) are always the ones who get it worst, but at the same time... What mildly bothers one child can absolutely traumatize a more sensitive one.
It can be a matter of genetics, or early experiences. One thing I know is that it's never a child's FAULT.

Unless we want to start including behavioral therapies into our curriculums(or parenting), I really don't see any way to just "not raise victims."

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that people are completely misguided in blaming PARENTS or institutions for attempting to PROTECT children.
I agree Akane, protecting them and standing up for them is exactly what we need to STOP bullying, or at least reduce it as much as possible.

The meme is an example of what bothers me.
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#3  Unread postby ButtonsPalace » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:34 pm


Ya'll are gonna love this...

When I was 6 my parents divorced. I watched my mom go through several terrible abusive relationships (I won't get into my terrible abusive relationships, because I could go on for days.) I looked up to my dad. I may as well have worshiped the ground he walked on, so when he left I was devastated. I thought it was my fault he left, my mom was obviously a wreck and had a hard time dealing with me. (This is when I became a VERY independent person, not because I so much wanted to) I remember cooking entire breakfasts for my mom when I was 6 before she was awake (By entire breakfast I mean eggs, bacon, liver mush, fried bologna, coffee, toast w/ butter &jelly.) I mean if we had it to cook I cooked it.
*Fast forward 2 years* I'm finally allowed to go stay the night with my dad this year if I'm not wrong but my step-mom wasn't supposed to stay the night when I would go for the weekend. Mom is still not remarried but now has back problems during the winter, I started slacking on my school to help her (As a 3rd grader how are you supposed to explain that to a teacher when you don't have your work)
*Fast Forward another year* So this is where it all really went down. This is when we first heard about sex ed. This is when I first started getting bullied about my weight and the shape of my boobs. I can't tell you how much I've been bullied about my boobs and weight, so much it's stupid.
*Ok Fast forward onto highschool* After several very awkward terrible friendless years in middle school I met my two best friends in 8th grade (We are still very close talking almost daily) Ok so this is the first time I moved in with my dad for a year. It was because my mom married some *I don't know a nice word for this man so we'll leave it at this* Well DSS (Department of Social Services) took me from my mom (DURING SCHOOL!!! They called me out of class to tell me.) So I moved in with my dad, that after about 8 months led to abuse in every form sexual, mental, physical I was literally living in hell and I had nobody I could trust except my rabbit. I told teachers at my school they told me I was being dramatic, I needed to get over myself. I even called the cops and DSS they told me I was lying (This meaning they called my parents and decided since I'm a kid I'm obviously lying). Boy oh boy. I'm 20 years old and still dealing with the demons of my childhood.
On to my point now, nobody saw any of that happening. They saw a overweight girl who was obviously very uncomfortable with her body and afraid to stand up for herself because she knew the repercussions. I was bullied by students, and teachers, there was no escape. If I got in trouble at school for standing up for myself, I knew it meant either getting yelled at, threatened, or spanked. I at 18 was embarrassed when my father punished me for something I didn't even do. I didn't cry I just stood their, it burned so bad (He's a strong man 6'5" and 280lbs and he was just very strong) I was raised a victim. I wanted to be strong and fight for myself but I wasn't allowed to. I was told it was wrong and bad to stand up for yourself. All of my so called role models deserve awards for being victims.

The school system is put in place to set kids up to be mindless drones. If you don't fit their quota they set you up for direct failure purposely. They don't care about the issues preventing you from doing your homework. They don't care about that kid that's bullying you. They don't care.

__________October 24th, 2016, 8:34 pm __________

What I was trying to say is I wasn't raised a victim but instead forced to be one and I think that's the biggest load of bull ever. I don't think parents should be allowed to abuse their children, In these small southern counties where everyone knows everyone it's very hard for kids to get out of terrible situations, I have forgave my bullies because I know someone is bullying them, whether it be their parents or someone else.
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#4  Unread postby akane » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:17 pm


Last time someone brought up one of those memes I responded that it's not like anyone chooses to be a victim. It doesn't take training to beat on someone in a fight and if yelling/arguing worked we'd all do it but it solves as much as "just tell them to stop" does and we are psychologically beaten into not doing it. What are you advocating we teach so the child isn't a victim? The bullies are willing to get physical so what self defense can you morally give a preteen or teen who is not devoted to some type of self defense training if the answer isn't to tell your teachers? That's why there are parents and teachers or we could replace phys ed with self defense training that avoids harming the opponent. We weren't supposed to defend ourselves but we weren't supposed to complain either. What are people advocating we do to not be victims? Break the entire school system and get expelled? That would solve it. If every "victim" stood up and got expelled I bet the bullying problem would be solved really fast. By my last 2 years of highschool they didn't require me to go before noon and they graduated me a semester early. There was no way I could make up the classes I missed, I'd reached the point that I refused to go to some classes and would sit in the library, and all my test scores were perfect. I got over 100% in chemistry, anatomy, and ap physics and I took extra math courses. After a panic attack in english classes I just went to the library when I couldn't handle a class. They wouldn't help so I quit playing that game. Fail the person who tests in the 99th percentile and has A's in all classes that aren't social or opinion based because you can't provide a safe learning environment. Let's see how that goes over. I was given a diploma under having autism and high test scores without completing half my classes and ordered not to return to school grounds again. k.... I was still having dreams of highschool up until the past 2 or 3 years. Sitting at a desk in junior high-highschool is my nightmare. Dreams of the friends I used to have until they dumped me to the bullies in 7th grade are what made up my bad dreams for 12 more years.
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#5  Unread postby Zass » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:20 pm


Yeah, I've mentioned on FB that public school could potentially cause PTSD, as it can be a source of extreme stress for prolonged periods of time.

The problem I encounter most, is that people who never felt that same stress tend to dismiss, belittle, demean others for expressing what they endured.

I was close to suicide during my senior year, and I never did complete it. When I talked to guidance, they just kept asking me if I was "special," because they could help me if I was. Being avoidant (consider it a very advanced form of shy), it's a huge struggle to bring myself to ask for any kind of help at all, and opposition defeats me almost immediately. Putting myself forward for psychological help was way beyond my scope.

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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#6  Unread postby akane » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:58 am


The high school required my mom to take me to a psychiatrist for diagnosis. They were complete idiots and treated a 17 year old like a 5 year old just for not talking much to them but it was enough to get a diploma. That was pointless as well as all college attempts but that's another matter.
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#7  Unread postby michaels4gardens » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:13 am


My approach was from several different angles,
JMHO--- bullies are a fact of life- so i thought awareness, and morals. I taught my children to stand up for people being bullied, and i taught them to fight efficiently, -- I asked them to try to remedy situations through school teachers and principals before returning violence, for violence. [but-sometimes school staff were worse than the students] this whole predatory attitude is often promoted through team sports, - by teachers, coaches and parents, - it is disgusting...
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#8  Unread postby FourRingCircus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:33 am


I was bullied horribly in elementary school (in AZ) - to the point one kid actually threatened to kill me :shock: . Somehow my mom (or someone) got him switched to another school, but he would still be there after the bell rang. I remember him staring me down as I walked by. Gives me chills to think about. We moved to VA before middle school, but I remember being terrified to go b/c I knew for sure I would be hurt or killed. Fast forward to 6th grade... new school. I took on the role of bully (not terrible, but still...) - I think it was a subconscious way of refusing to be bullied again so I put up a front. Boy oh boy were those a rough few years. I settled down in HS, especially after meeting DH (we met when I had just turned 15, dated long distance... it's how I made it to NC eventually ;) ). My dad says that moving to VA was the worst mistake of his life, I told him that it likely saved mine.

I feel the pain so many kids go through. The longing to just belong. To not be tormented at every turn for every little thing. I, too, had a bully of a teacher in 3rd grade. That didn't help at all. It's a sad state we're in. I can't imagine going through school now-a-days... I already have a weird fear of technology, that someone is recording me at my lowest point and it's going to somehoe go viral - what is that like in school where everyone has a phone and total access at all times? You can't get away from it! Back then I could just go home. Now? They follow you through cyber space to every dark corner of your life. You can't get away. You can't hide. How many children have we lost to bullying and the despair they feel so heavily they don't think there is any other way out? It's sad, and it's scary. Our society is one big bully at this point. Tolerate... OR ELSE! If you're not in with the IN crowd, you're beyond OUT. My son gets made fun of (at his BIBLE STUDY) for taking dance... thankfully he enjoys it enough I think he will stick with it. But he has been in tears. It breaks my heart. We talk about how not everyone is the same... how we need to stick up for those that are being made fun of. There's no way to tell if it's sinking in, but I hope it's in their heart, ready to come out when it's needed most. We are all God's children. We are all beautiful and miraculous creations. We are all members of the HUMAN RACE. In my mind there are no "races" within the human race. Cultures? Yes. Races? No. If we could step back and see each human as the miracle that they are I think we could be on to something. We aren't just blobs of cells.

Another thing? Ditch the violent video games. They are similar to the ones the military uses to desensitize troops before combat. Life isn't a game. We are all living, breathing human beings.
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#9  Unread postby ButtonsPalace » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:37 am


Violent games are definitely an issue, but so are abusive parents.
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#10  Unread postby alforddm » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:52 am


We moved to a new school when I was in 4th grade. I was bullied by the other kids mostly because I was the new kid. Much of it was the teachers fault. She won't take any action just said they were kids and would have to "work it out." I cried many days not wanting to go to school. Thankfully I had good supportive parents who I knew loved me. By the 5th grade things can calmed down and in 6th grade one of the other girls befriended me. After that things got much better and I did well in Jr High and High School.

The don't raise victims stuff only works after kids are older (teenagers and up). Then, it only works if the child has a strong support base. Yes, raise strong children who won't be victims, by being the type of supportive parent you need to be. Unfortunately, some people take the support you kid thing to far and raise bullies instead.

I actually stopped a man molesting me when I was 14 by telling the guy to "get his hands off me and leave me alone". I actually hit him. Granted, I was so scared, it wasn't very hard and if he had really wanted to press the issue he probably could have. However, being able to stand up to him made the difference. I have my parents to thank for that. This man had actually touched me inappropriately a couple of years before so I had no doubt of his intentions. We later found out he had done things to other girls as well.

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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#11  Unread postby FourRingCircus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:13 am


ButtonsPalace wrote:Violent games are definitely an issue, but so are abusive parents.
14716054_1158018414267855_7510525273487728127_n.jpg

i am not meaning to down play other issues, just pointing out another huge, prevalent factor in society...
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#12  Unread postby Zass » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:46 pm


I was definitely not saying that anyone should avoid teaching children self defense or how to stand up for themselves.
My own 12 year old daughter is a brown belt in shotokan karate. She's been going to a dojo for years.

I do not believe she would be bullied in public school either. She has confidence and charm stemming from a lifetime of having a strong support base. She KNOWS someone would listen to her problems, and she KNOWS her family would stick up for her or remove her from any situation that she couldn't handle on her own.

With that security comes confidence. She can put herself forward because there is a strong security net to catch her if she falls.

I guess, what I was trying to say was that it feels like the "wrapping in cotton wool" memes suggest it is the support base itself that is guilty of creating victims, instead of the opposite. :shock:

It's also putting the blame on the victim, instead of the bully.
We see this with rape too.. :evil:

Those children without the support, the ones who no one will listen to, are the ones who NEED protection.


I was thinking, part of the problem is that people do not necessarily understand how much pain children feel. They could experience the same thing and not be bothered, so why are the other kids whining?

That might be behind a lot of the dismissive behavior and "looking away" that seems to happen when children are bullied. The other kids may honestly not understand what they are doing, and permitting.

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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#13  Unread postby ButtonsPalace » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:19 pm


heritage wrote:
ButtonsPalace wrote:Violent games are definitely an issue, but so are abusive parents.
14716054_1158018414267855_7510525273487728127_n.jpg

i am not meaning to down play other issues, just pointing out another huge, prevalent factor in society...


I know you weren't. I wasn't saying that against you. There are several factors and I know violent video games are pretty up there because young kids play it or see siblings play it and they pick up the habits and think it's a.ok
Zass wrote:I was definitely not saying that anyone should avoid teaching children self defense or how to stand up for themselves.
My own 12 year old daughter is a brown belt in shotokan karate. She's been going to a dojo for years.

I do not believe she would be bullied in public school either. She has confidence and charm stemming from a lifetime of having a strong support base. She KNOWS someone would listen to her problems, and she KNOWS her family would stick up for her or remove her from any situation that she couldn't handle on her own.

With that security comes confidence. She can put herself forward because there is a strong security net to catch her if she falls.

I guess, what I was trying to say was that it feels like the "wrapping in cotton wool" memes suggest it is the support base itself that is guilty of creating victims, instead of the opposite. :shock:

It's also putting the blame on the victim, instead of the bully.
We see this with rape too.. :evil:

Those children without the support, the ones who no one will listen to, are the ones who NEED protection.


I was thinking, part of the problem is that people do not necessarily understand how much pain children feel. They could experience the same thing and not be bothered, so why are the other kids whining?

That might be behind a lot of the dismissive behavior and "looking away" that seems to happen when children are bullied. The other kids may honestly not understand what they are doing, and permitting.


Yeah having no support base makes it really hard to feel comfortable in your own skin. I got bullied throughout my entire school life and never understood why. Girls would say "I'll be your best friend if you'll do this and this" and I'd do it because I wanted to be their friend. It didn't matter to me if I was popular I just wanted friends. But I had nobody, it wasn't until 8th grade when I met my two best friends that I finally started to learn how to stand up for myself.
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#14  Unread postby Zass » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:59 pm


Just maybe, the support base itself is one of the things that makes it hurt less to some people, even when bullying does happen.

Sort of like, kids who can go home and talk to their parents (or someone else) about what happened may be able to process and rationalize it all better. That can be told that it's not their fault that other children sometimes try to bully others. They can be coached on how to handle things.
I think, the pain and/or damage may be lessened somewhat that way.
The same experience may psychologically harm a child a whole lot more when they have to bottle it up and keep it all to themselves. Not knowing how to handle it, and all to often blaming themselves. :(
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Re: This "don't raise victims" crap

Post Number:#15  Unread postby alforddm » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:02 pm


Zass wrote:Just maybe, the support base itself is one of the things that makes it hurt less to some people, even when bullying does happen.

Sort of like, kids who can go home and talk to their parents (or someone else) about what happened may be able to process and rationalize it all better. That can be told that it's not their fault that other children sometimes try to bully others. They can be coached on how to handle things.
I think, the pain and/or damage may be lessened somewhat that way.
The same experience may psychologically hurt a child a whole lot more when they have to bottle it up and keep it all to themselves. Not knowing how to handle it, and all to often blaming themselves. :(


:yeahthat:

I can't imagine how I would have felt, being bullied as a child, if I hadn't had caring parents. It hurt bad enough as it was.

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