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Color Imposibility

A place to ask about rabbit colours and to discuss rabbit genetics -- and how to breed for the desired results.
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Color Imposibility

Post Number:#1  Unread postby pfaubush » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:43 am


A couple weeks ago, I bought 2 black does, as my goal is to have a nice line of blues if/when they ever are approved. I was looking at the pedigree (rather than scanning it) and realized that both of the parents are listed as blue. I'm no genetic guru, but since black is dominant and blue is double recessive, wouldn't it be impossible for 2 blues to create a black?

I didn't get the does from the original breeder, but I do know her. She is very versed in genetics so I'm not sure what I'm missing here. I am using them with the intention of getting my blues going since I lost the stock to do that. The problem is that if I want to sell breeding stock out of them, I certainly don't want to hand out a pedigree that isn't correct.

And just as a side note, I danced when I got these blacks. They are proven does and old enough that I know they will stay true black and not go all steel on me! Yippee!

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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#2  Unread postby ottersatin » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:31 am


Yes,
it would appear to be an impossibility to produce a Black Rabbit out of two Blue Parents.
That being said: I must say that I am hardly a genetics genius but,
I have produced White Rabbits out of a breeding of two Blacks.
I believe it has alot to do with what is in the background of both parents.
It is well know that genetic factors can make an appearance from as far back
as 45 generations. Hey, if your happy with the color and the type,
go for it! Stranger things have happened.
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#3  Unread postby akane » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:17 am


It doesn't just appear impossible, it is impossible. White is possible out of any two rabbits because it is a completely recessive color that then masks all other colors when they get 2 genes. You can only get white out of 2 whites just like you can only get blue or another diluted color like lilac out of 2 blues. Someone either mistook a black for a blue or wrote something down wrong. I'd contact the person you got them from and point it out. She may not have noticed or she may already know what happened.
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#4  Unread postby Jack » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:15 pm


:oops:
yeah, you said it the short way with out the genetics
recessive traits may pop out of dominate (black :arrow: blues) but never the other way.
Last edited by Jack on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#5  Unread postby Shara » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:47 pm


ugh, you guys confuse me so bad with this genetics talk....

I think I am going to go nuts trying to understand it!
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#6  Unread postby Jack » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:52 pm


it's as easy as abcde...

A_ is agouti
aa is not agouti

B_ is black
bb is brown (chocolate

D_ is not dilute
dd is dilute and modifies the color black + dd = blue, bb (chocolate)+ dd = lilac

so yeah a aa B_ dd x same should only breed true blues and lilac (possibly)
Last edited by Jack on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#7  Unread postby moonkitten » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:26 pm


Pfaubush, you are correct. A blue rabbit has a double dilute recessive (dd), therefore 2 blues will only have 'd' to pass on and cannot produce a non-dilute black. We don't really need to go into the black vs chocolate gene since the genetic impossibility here is for 2 dilutes to produce a non-dilute.

I would give the breeder the benefit of the doubt and call back pointing out the genetic impossibility and asking for a double check on the pedigree. If the breeder insists that 2 blues produced a black, I would scrap the pedigree and start a new one with the black does.

Edited to say: Ah, that genetics explanation is much clearer :)
Last edited by moonkitten on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#8  Unread postby pfaubush » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:40 pm


I haven't called the breeder back, but like I said, she's pretty well versed in genetics. She's also very fair. I just think it was a mistake on her part, not intentional. I just wanted to be certain, rather than stick my foot in my mouth.

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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#9  Unread postby Jack » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:56 pm


could be that she mixed up litters
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#10  Unread postby pfaubush » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:01 pm


The above should read foot in MY mouth. For some reason when I try to edit it boots me out.

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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#11  Unread postby MaggieJ » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:20 am


I edited it for you, Paula. Not sure why it wouldn't let you do it, but if the problem persists, please let us know.
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#12  Unread postby pfaubush » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:08 pm


Ugh, I called the breeder and she did tell me that the doe was actually opal. She did swear up and down that you can get a black from 2 blues. She said it happens all the time at her place. I'm under the impression that she is getting opals?

__________ Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:08 am __________

Crud, wait! You can't get black out of a blue and an opal. I'm lost now. I don't want to think that she is being dishonest on the pedigrees. Fortunately, I have all that I need to start my line and won't need to purchase anything, but it makes it hard to know what kinds of things could be hiding in the lines. I guess I wouldn't know from past 3 generations anyways.

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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#13  Unread postby moonkitten » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:39 pm


pfaubush wrote:She did swear up and down that you can get a black from 2 blues. She said it happens all the time at her place.


No, you absolutely cannot. Either she is not as well versed in genetics as she led you to believe or she is breeding to multiple bucks and not keeping accurate records.

pfaubush wrote:You can't get black out of a blue and an opal.


That's correct, you can't. An opal is an agouti blue (with 'A-' rather than 'aa') but still a double dilute recessive which is NOT going to pass on a dominant 'D' gene -- it simply isn't there.

If you're happy with the does, just start the pedigree with them. Fortunately it doesn't take long to get to 3 generations in rabbits, so you can develop your own pedigree as you go. If we're talking about New Zealands, it's going to be a few years before blues get accepted (if they do) so you've got plenty of time to produce your own 3-4 generations :)
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#14  Unread postby PhoenixFarm » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:38 pm


perhaps, at some point, a person wrote BL as shorthand for Blue or Black, and the transcription was misinterpreted.
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Re: Color Imposibility

Post Number:#15  Unread postby pfaubush » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:12 am


PhoenixFarm wrote:perhaps, at some point, a person wrote BL as shorthand for Blue or Black, and the transcription was misinterpreted.


No, I called the original breeder and she swears it was a blue and an opal. Ah well, I'm happy with the rabbits, it will be at least 3 years before they will be approved, and the goal is to have a great line of blues with SA as the only prefix on the pedigrees. I'm happy, just confused, since I have several rabbits from this breeder out in my barn...er...I did. And man, did I have a heck of a time finding black rabbits that didn't get steel tips. In fact the black buck I bought to start this project, then ended up with tips was from her. Genetics sure aren't for the faint of heart. :x

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