Register

Broken or Charlie?

A place to ask about rabbit colours and to discuss rabbit genetics -- and how to breed for the desired results.
9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership
Posts: 16
Joined: May 20, 2010
Location: Albuquerque
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 0 in 0 post
BunnyBucks: 45.00

Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#1  Unread postby BalloonMountain » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:27 pm


Hello, I am confused! The more I read about color genetics the less I comprehend! I have a gray and white Buck with brown eyes and his coloring looks about 50/50 gray to white. The thing that is confusing me is when I breed him to a solid black I got everything, solids, Charlies, and a broken. I breed him to a broken and get solids and Charlie's? To top it off over half of the babies come out with blue eyes! ?!? He looks like a broken to me but how can you really tell if a rabbit is a broken or a Charlie? Thanks for your help!

8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership
User avatar
Posts: 2033
Joined: August 1, 2010
Location: upstate New York
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 309 in 256 posts
BunnyBucks: 8,390.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#2  Unread postby ottersatin » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:02 pm


The Blue Eyes are due to the Vienna Gene.
That is the one that causes Blue Eyes.
It is a charlie if it has less than 50% color.
Most charlies show a Charlie Chaplin looking mustache
nose marking and very little color on the body,
usually less than 10%.
Any and all colors may be hiding on/in the broken patterned rabbit.
Ottersatin. :oldtimer:
Please visit my website: http://crescentvalley.webs.com/
Sign Guest book so I know you stopped by.
Thank you Dennis.

9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership
User avatar
Posts: 7447
Joined: December 26, 2009
Location: near London, Ontario
Canada Female
Thanks: 43
Thanked: 769 in 660 posts
BunnyBucks: 33,876.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#3  Unread postby ladysown » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:37 am


he could possibly be a vienna marked broken as well.

the vienna gene does some odd things with bunnies. You find that generally broken's look a certain way, they have a certain pattern to how the markings fall, the vienna gene messes that pattern up. breeding a broken to a solid should result in brokens and solids, and breeding broken to broken can give you solids, brokens, and charlies.

colouration on those brokens depends on some of the genes for broken and how they are expressed in the offspring. are their any charlies in the background of the rabbits involved?

blue eyes...that's the vienna gene coming through. it's pretty. I played around with it once, and decided to avoid it there after. :) vienna marks are just odd to work with, though gives a person some very pretty looking bunnies. :)
ladysown

http://athomepets.weebly.com/
Primary Blog : http://athomepets.weebly.com/at-home-pets-blog.html
Old Blog: blogs/athomepets/

9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership
Posts: 16
Joined: May 20, 2010
Location: Albuquerque
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 0 in 0 post
BunnyBucks: 45.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#4  Unread postby BalloonMountain » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:49 pm


Thanks for your help. I'm not sure of the background past the pedigree but nothing's that far back. So then is it true that no matter what the color to white ratio is, if the rabbit doesn't have the full nose coloring it is considered a Charlie? Would it be this Vienna gene then that messes with things when breeding Charlie's to Selfs and not getting 100% brokens? Thanks again!

8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership
User avatar
Posts: 7133
Joined: July 17, 2010
Location: Iowa
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 1075 in 953 posts
BunnyBucks: 36,700.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#5  Unread postby akane » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:54 pm


Genetically a charlie has 2 broken genes, a broken has 1, and a solid has none. However sometimes you can't tell the difference between a broken with a lot of white and a charlie. You can only get true charlies though from breeding broken to broken or charlie to broken. Broken is not a simple on or off gene. There are a lot of unmapped modifier genes that could make a broken with hardly any white and a solid rabbit throw a rabbit that's nearly all white. This is not a charlie even if it lacks certain markings. It is simply a very white broken that may not make show standards. Sometimes when you breed a broken with a lot of white you will get a minimally marked rabbit. Usually these just have white feet and are therefore called booted.

If you breed a charlie to a solid and don't get 100% broken you do not have a charlie. You only have a broken rabbit.

Vienna genes can add white making broken more complicated. You could have a broken hiding blue eyed white or a VM (vienna marked) rabbit on top of broken ruining some required markings. It's generally not suggested to mix the 2 for that reason unless you like complicated genetics and surprises.
http://s1321.beta.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/library/
Failing might just mean you are trying to climb instead of swim https://youtu.be/evathYHc1Fg

9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership
User avatar
Posts: 7447
Joined: December 26, 2009
Location: near London, Ontario
Canada Female
Thanks: 43
Thanked: 769 in 660 posts
BunnyBucks: 33,876.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#6  Unread postby ladysown » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:57 pm


a charlie is a broken rabbit with less than 10% colouring.

The ones I've raised and or seen usually have colour on their ears. ONE small coloured spot on their body, and may or may not have colour in the bed of the nose.

Lack of colour there does NOT signify a rabbit is a charlie, it merely signifies a non-showable bunny as brokens must have colour in their nose bed.
ladysown

http://athomepets.weebly.com/
Primary Blog : http://athomepets.weebly.com/at-home-pets-blog.html
Old Blog: blogs/athomepets/

8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership8 years of membership
User avatar
Posts: 7133
Joined: July 17, 2010
Location: Iowa
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 1075 in 953 posts
BunnyBucks: 36,700.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#7  Unread postby akane » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:07 pm


Charlie has less than 10% coloring but a rabbit with less than 10% coloring may not be a charlie.

__________ Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:07 pm __________

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/SolidsBrokensCharlies.htm
http://s1321.beta.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/library/
Failing might just mean you are trying to climb instead of swim https://youtu.be/evathYHc1Fg

9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership
Posts: 16
Joined: May 20, 2010
Location: Albuquerque
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 0 in 0 post
BunnyBucks: 45.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#8  Unread postby BalloonMountain » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:55 am


Well thank you to all who replied! I guess this maybe a little more complex than I can master right now. Maybe I will stick to solids for now, like chocolate Satins, that just sounds yummy too, ooooh solid satin chocolate! Thanks again everyone!

9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership
Posts: 34
Joined: February 14, 2010
Location: USA/California
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 3 in 3 posts
BunnyBucks: 10.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#9  Unread postby All Ears Rabbitry » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:19 am


You said your rabbit has about 50% grey to 50% white. That is a broken. A Charlie has very little color, less then 10% as stated. I have had light patterned brokens I thought were charlies as they came from brokenXbroken breedings but when bred to solids I got all solid. Go figure. Blue eyes are from the vienna gene but if the rabbit doesn't express blue eyes don't both rabbits in questions have to carry the vienna gene (BEW genetics stump me - lol).

9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership
Posts: 16
Joined: May 20, 2010
Location: Albuquerque
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 0 in 0 post
BunnyBucks: 45.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#10  Unread postby BalloonMountain » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:06 pm


Yes this Buck is about 50% gray and 50% white. He does only have a little over half a mustache though. I'm not sure about the blue eye color thing though. I crossed 4 breeds, Californian, Florida White, Dutch (black), and a Red Satin to get one quarter blood from each. I selectively bred and culled these for a few generations until all of the stock had a very light Californian color and very similar type. After a few years of breeding these exclusively I got bored and decided to throw this broken Buck into the mix. Boy did that ever mix it up! It has me way more mixed up than the rabbits though!

9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership9 years of membership
User avatar
Posts: 1895
Joined: January 6, 2010
Location: North Simcoe Ontario
Thanks: 51
Thanked: 136 in 118 posts
BunnyBucks: 6,955.00

Re: Broken or Charlie?

Post Number:#11  Unread postby Devon's Mom Lauren » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:01 pm


That blue eye thing is coming from the Dutch blood.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests