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Pointed white Elop

A place to ask about rabbit colours and to discuss rabbit genetics -- and how to breed for the desired results.
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Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#1  Unread postby Jasharia » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:27 am


I was talking to a breeder at the last show and she wanted to start breeding pointed white English lops. Then she told be how they used to be all over the place and now the died down. I never seen one and I did a search on google and nothing poped up. Now I would love to seet what they would look like. She told me how she was going to do it. She was going to get a californian one that was just too long. Breed it to her english lop. Now my question is with culling heavily how many generations do you thin it would take to get a good lop that looks like it could show as a pointed white English lop? Also how many would it be a pure English lop? Would you have to do a lot of line breeding along with that? I was thinking about maybe helping her and we can get other blood in there insted of line breeding over and over. Just a thought.

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#2  Unread postby HendricksHearth » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:04 am


In order for the PW Elops to be "purebred" by ARBA standards, every animal on the pedigree would have to be English Lop, so it would be the F4 generation as far as I can tell. The bad news is that even at that generation they still won't really have all the right parts in the right places so to speak (ie short ears, might still peak early, have short shoulders, etc.). I think it sounds like a neat project, but you should plan on at least 4 years (possibly more) of culling hard and breeding back to GC types to get some good PW's. I have been toying with the idea of doing that for chocolates or tris myself not because they don't exist, but because I can't get my hands on any of them still after close to 2 years and very few people do color projects with our breed for some reason.

Best of luck!

Lauren

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#3  Unread postby Jasharia » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:24 am


I seen one girl on washington state trying to work on a true chocolate english lop. I think I will go for it. It will be fun to do and teach me to cull hard. I for the life of me can not cull I want to hold back everyone. I just taked to some one that has calis and is going to sell me some fryers for like $12. The are redy now to go to the freezer so I want to snach a few before then. I think I know what to look for one that is long all over maybe have some NZ look to it as they have both breeds. They mainly sell for meat. I might even get my first rabbit to eat still on the fence about that. How many calis should I get? They are selling them for $12 and at 5-6#'s. I have a english lop buck he is broken blue tort really nice buck and a doe rew very nice looking doe.

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#4  Unread postby HendricksHearth » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:45 pm


Yup, Rebecca Doyle has the chocolate Elop project and I'd love stock from her, but she is still working on them (so none for sale yet). I do have two bucks from her, but they are not from that color project. She is great to deal with though... maybe one day!

As far as PW's, I don't know if this is a concern to your or not, but I am not sure that they are recognized. They are not in my SOP anyway specifically, so it is possible you would need to pursue a certificate of development. I do have a pointed white Mini Lop and they are supposed to share colors with Elops though, so not 100% sure.. just something to consider.

I don't think NZ's would help you with your project much and I wouldn't get a whole bunch of Calis- you just need to get the color going and then start crossing your crosses and breeding Elops back into them. I have read mixed reviews about using REW's in PW projects with other breeds- I'll see if I can find some links for you later today.

Best of luck,

Lauren

__________ Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:45 pm __________

Here is a link I had bookmarked for when I purchased my PW ML:

Pointed White Hollands: http://www.hlrsc.com/Articles/pointedwhitearticle.html
^They say that the REW color in the PW projects washes out the point colors, so something to watch out for. They also talk about making sure not to breed certain colors (like anything from the agouti group) into the PW or it can ruin the final color by adding white under the tail, etc.

Best of luck!

Lauren

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#5  Unread postby Jasharia » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:15 pm


Alright this is going to be a fun project. I talked to the People about there calis and next week I am going to pick up 3 does. When the time comes I am going to breed them to my Elop buck. I might even get a few more Elops for the project some solid selfs. oooh I can not wait to do this. PW are my fav color in all breeds. I was told the color is a recognized color so I can start show once they start looking like a elop. Once I start breeding I will keep a blog or somthing to show my progress.

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#6  Unread postby HendricksHearth » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:02 am


Hope you have a great time! The only thing is if I were you I would verify with the LRCA that PW's are recognized. I just received the new LRCA guidebook in the mail this past week and I didn't see it listed as an acceptable color even within the shaded group or anything. I checked and I didn't see it for last year's book either. It might be just fine (and not explicitly stated), or it might have been okay at one point, but maybe not anymore? It can't hurt to check because you are looking at 4+ years of work and it wouldn't be so great if the end result wasn't showable.

Best of luck!

Lauren

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#7  Unread postby Jasharia » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:36 am


Yea Iam going to call them tomarrow and see. I could alwaus get a COD if it is not a color that is showable right? Of corse if I invest all my time to getting nice pointed whites and they are not a recognized color I am going to go all they way to get it recognized for sure. I love pointed whites in all breeds I think a big old pointed lop would be so cute. I need to get a new breed book.

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#8  Unread postby HendricksHearth » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:24 am


Yes you can get a COD as long as you have been a member of the ARBA for at least five years in a row, then you submit a letter with a proposed SOP for PW's, pay $50 and wait. If you are approved then you have to hold the certificate for at least 3 years before making a presentation at a national convention. You also have to be a member with the breed club because they have to be willing to accept the color, too. For the presentations, I believe you start with a pair (that have to be good to pass) and IF they pass, you have to bring offspring of that pair and the original pair. The offspring must show improvement and then the next time, the last pair has to show improvement over the previous generation and be descended from the original pair. That's 3+ years later the original pair will likely have to be back up on the tables showing at convention (and heaven forbid anything happen to that original buck and doe). I think I was told most folks spend between $500-$2000 each convention year depending on how close they are, how many rabbits they enter, so it can get pricey. I didn't even go and I think I spent upwards of $500 just on the purchase price of rabbits + transport fees + show fees + boarding fees prior to the show and that did not even include travel and/or airfare, hotel, parking, food, etc.

Not trying to discourage you, but if PW is not already accepted (and that would be the #1 thing to find out) then it is a MAJOR undertaking to try to get something new approved. I am not sure if you already know all what is involved, but your post kind of made it sound like it wasn't such an overwhelmingly difficult task and it really is almost impossible in some ways. People spend years and years + all sorts of money and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't- it is generally very difficult to get a new breed or variety passed by the ARBA. Like folks started working with Velveteen Lops in 1994 for example, and this year yet again they weren't able to pass even being one of the premier lop breeders and exhibitors in the country for years and years with more experience than I might ever have. Even just reading about some of the attempts are frustrating because little tiny things ruin the chance to pass- like animals that lose condition at such a stressful event like the national convention, or a tiny white spot, or even if the rabbit somehow gets hurt AT convention (like the neighboring rabbit nips it) or it pulls a nail/tooth, can absolutely ruin an entire presentation after all those years and thousands spent. I know for myself that I am not at all able financially or physically to take out a COD for anything even if I wanted to. Maybe twenty years from now, but not any time soon that's for sure. :)

Best of luck,

Lauren

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#9  Unread postby Jasharia » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:02 pm


That is alot of work. I will look first to see if they color is accepted or not. Then I will go from there. I only been a member of ARBA for a year so far so I still have time to look into it. Then it is going to take some time just to get a pair I will even show anyone anyways. Or I can then just pick a color that is not common like chocolate or something like that.

__________ Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:02 pm __________

You know I been thinking if it is not a color recognized then I will just work with a self color Red. I know that color is but do not see many people working on them. Then when I get more years under me I will work on the pointed white.

__________ Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:02 pm __________


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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#10  Unread postby HendricksHearth » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:36 pm


I know for sure red is an accepted color and here is a link to someone that has started working on them if that helps you with your brainstorming:

http://www.panjandrumlops.com/

Best of luck!

Lauren

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#11  Unread postby Devon's Mom Lauren » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:23 am


Why use Californian? Why not use a pointed lop such as a french or mini? That way you don't lose the all important crown and ears in the first crosses which would take years to get back.

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#12  Unread postby HendricksHearth » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:28 pm


I am wondering if you are thinking of another breed because Elops shouldn't have a noticeable crown at all?

Jasharia, did you hear anything back yet by chance? I just read an article by Judge Thomas Coatoam and he implied that a Himalayan marked Elop would be just like having a Dutch-marked or Magpie Elop on the show tables, lol. I am itching to get my hands on the 2011 SOP, but my 2006-2010 standard has only the following recognized (no PW's) so I am thinking that is the most likely answer:

Agouti Group-
Chinchilla (Black, Blue, Chocolate, Lilac, Sable, or Smoke Pearl base colors)
Chestnut or Chocolate Agouti
Lynx
Opal

Broken Group-
Broken
Tri-colored (black/orange, blue/fawn, choco/orange, lilac/fawn)

Self Group-
Black
Blue
Chocolate
Lilac
White (REW or BEW)

Shaded Group-
Frosted Pearl (Black, blue, choco, lilac)
Sable
Sable Point
Seal
Smoke Pearl
Tortoise (Black, blue, choco, lilac)

Ticked Group-
Silver/Silver Fox (Black, blue, brown, fawn)
Steel (Gold or silver tipping- black, blue, chocolate, lilac, sable, smoke pearl)

Wide Band Group-
Cream
Fawn
Orange
Red

Best of luck,

Lauren

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#13  Unread postby Jasharia » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:33 am


After talking to members of the lop club I came up to working with the red for now. I am going to get a few NZ reds and a nice orange or fawn english lop. Then if I still want to do the PW years down the line I will.

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#14  Unread postby Devon's Mom Lauren » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:46 pm


just thinking.. a pointed E-Lop would certainly be stunning! The dark ears against a white body would be quite "noticeable' lol

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Re: Pointed white Elop

Post Number:#15  Unread postby PulpFaction » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:49 pm


I saw a picture of a sable point eLop on someone's page. I'm sure the base color wasn't pure white, but at least the pattern is there. It would probably be a good place to start.
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