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New crossbreeding project

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New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#1  Unread postby Harelady » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:06 am


So I am going to probably piss off a number of breeders by doing this but I think its will improve my herd. I have decided to attempt to improve body type on my Hotots by doing a cross with some NZ blacks. I found some that only have black or broken black on the pedigree. I will not be selling these crosses till I get hotot markings back and plan on using the extras as a source of meat for me and the dogs.

The problem I see with the Hotots is that they all have about the same faults. My goal is always to breed to improve and I not seeing a way to do with the current genetics that I have available.

So wish me luck since this will be a long term project. Should be interesting. Will keep everyone updated on my progress.

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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#2  Unread postby TeaTimeBunnies » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:59 am


That sounds quite interesting actually. I myself was thinking about doing something crossbreeding experiments, but mine are mostly color experiments and if sold would go strictly to pet homes. Please keep us posted on your project!!
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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#3  Unread postby KimitsuKouseki » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:53 am


I think it's good to refresh the gene pools sometimes so I agree with your plan. Not that I could disagree anyways considering what I do XD (lionhead, english angora crosses with some dwarf netherland and holand lop mixes in the mix, creating a race variant is all XD)

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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#4  Unread postby SableSteel » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:20 pm


Well... the hotot for the old standard was a NZ with a hotot eye photoshopped on, so :lol:

There have been people outcrossing them to help improve type. In fact, most of the US stock has some level of cross breeding (according to a few judges I've talked to). The thing that often gets overlooked, is the fur type of blanc de hotot. They have a unique shine (that ivory cast) to their coat that is easily lost in crossbreeding.

The problem is, they have a different body type in other parts of the world, so imports that are brought in to fix other things or increase the gene pool don't exactly help type.
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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#5  Unread postby Harelady » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:08 pm


SableSteel wrote:The problem is, they have a different body type in other parts of the world, so imports that are brought in to fix other things or increase the gene pool don't exactly help type.


That is the biggest problem I think the imports are so different than our standard. There are a group of breeders that want to keep them purebred from imported rabbits. The problem is that you cannot get a good commercial body type from them. So the other half crosses then with a different breed to improve the type.

I currently have two bucks and a doe. All from different breeders with imported rabbits on the pedigrees. They all have the same faults in body type. I just cannot breed to improve with the ones I have. I could breed just to breed. But that is not how I operate.

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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#6  Unread postby shazza » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:39 pm


i would agree with the project, as i'm kind of the same way. i've just been breeding to breed the past year though since i can never make any shows so i haven't been able to really learn the faults of my animals, but at least i'm making pelt money lol. but i understand the frustration of not feeling like anything you produce is better than its parents. i'm interested in watching your progress and how long it takes to get back to that hotot look.

i've actually been wanting to get into hotots so this is interesting information to hear. i have never seen any at shows, so i haven't been able to really get a feel for how they are, i just wanted a white rabbit breed and liked the look and appeal of the rarity of the breed. if only i could find someone who will actually sell me a pair :p
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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#7  Unread postby Harelady » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:02 am


shazza wrote:i've actually been wanting to get into hotots so this is interesting information to hear. i have never seen any at shows, so i haven't been able to really get a feel for how they are, i just wanted a white rabbit breed and liked the look and appeal of the rarity of the breed. if only i could find someone who will actually sell me a pair :p


It would take some planning but I bet I could send you a pair at some point. I have a pair for sale right now but they are pretty badly typed and I was planning on culling them. Another thing about Hotots is you get mismarked babies. So if you want completely white pelts all the time this breed will not be the best for that. Since Dutch marked and sports are common.

It will take me at least two generations to get the Hotot markings back if not three. So it should be interesting. I am getting a broken black buck and a black doe of NZ to cross. I will have to cull carefully because the more Hotot I put back in the more type I will lose.

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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#8  Unread postby shazza » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:05 am


i am going to be moving to washington in the next few months, so if you're anywhere on that route from texas to the west coast it could work if you get any nicer ones (i do plan to show them so i am ok with brood quality but i'd prefer a good type.) or if you know anyone in that area...but with a breed like this, i am expecting to use a transporter or go on a road trip. it wouldn't be the first time ;P having mismarks and sports wouldn't be an issue, i'm also interested in americans for the same reasons too. the demand for white pelts isn't particularly high, i would just like a more consistent source than my one REW rex haha. it would be fun to meet a fellow RTer too since i missed out on meeting macksmom at a texas show this year due to a scheduling conflict

i didn't know hotots had dutch markings buried in there though. i just assumed they were some kind of extreme charlie without the odd genetic defects. finding information about them online is so hard, most breeders' sites just have the same info about their origin and rarity, not so much the genetics behind their markings and coat type
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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#9  Unread postby Harelady » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:25 pm


shazza wrote:i am going to be moving to washington in the next few months, so if you're anywhere on that route from texas to the west coast it could work if you get any nicer ones (i do plan to show them so i am ok with brood quality but i'd prefer a good type.) or if you know anyone in that area...but with a breed like this, i am expecting to use a transporter or go on a road trip.


If you go north to Nebraska then head west then yeah you will go right pass me. I won't have any think by then but hope to have 50/50 crosses on the ground by then. There are a couple of breeders in Washington I think you could contact.

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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#10  Unread postby shazza » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:27 pm


i would love any info you (or anyone) could give me on good breeders up there. we won't know anyone and i trust you guys more than some random google search result for sure!
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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#11  Unread postby SableSteel » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:51 pm


shazza wrote:
i didn't know hotots had dutch markings buried in there though. i just assumed they were some kind of extreme charlie without the odd genetic defects. finding information about them online is so hard, most breeders' sites just have the same info about their origin and rarity, not so much the genetics behind their markings and coat type


Their markings are a combination of dutch type markings and broken/charlie markings.


Here's a very good article on hotot marking genetics (albeit dwarf hotot)
http://www.amysrabbitranch.com/Color&Ge ... 0Hotot.pdf
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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#12  Unread postby Nymphadora » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:04 pm


SableSteel wrote:Their markings are a combination of dutch type markings and broken/charlie markings.


Here's a very good article on hotot marking genetics (albeit dwarf hotot)
http://www.amysrabbitranch.com/Color&Ge ... 0Hotot.pdf

I will likely never have a use for some of this knowledge (at most I am playing with broken... dutch patterns shouldn't pop up in Rex, as far as I know). But that was a very well-written and thought out article! What a great resource, thank you for posting it, SableSteel! :)

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Re: New crossbreeding project

Post Number:#13  Unread postby Ghost » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:42 pm


Harelady wrote:So I am going to probably piss off a number of breeders by doing this but I think its will improve my herd. I have decided to attempt to improve body type on my Hotots by doing a cross with some NZ blacks.


What you are attempting to do is often called out-crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcrossing. In your case population geneticists would say that you are promoting gene flow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_flow from the NZ rabbit population to the Hotot rabbit population. This is allowed under the rules of the ARBA as long as the rabbits conform to the breed standard set forth by the ARBA.

Most geneticists would tend to agree that when DONE PROPERLY will make the Hotot rabbit population genetically stronger. As a mater of fact many geneticists believe that population fracturing is a major contribution to the current mass extinction of animals in the wild. Many populations of wild animals are split up. Instead of having one interbreeding population of 20k that population is split into four separate breeding groups of 4k. It first it only looks like 4k individuals were lost. What is actually worse, when it comes to maintaining the species, is that the animals from each of the smaller populations can not exchange genes with the other populations.

Animal registries such as the AKC operate what is called a closed registry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed_registry#Closed. Meaning that you can not register a dog as say an "old English sheepdog" unless every ancestral line leads back to the original set of founding members.

In effect the AKC is through it's registry splitting the separate dog breeds into separate genetic islands. There are many scientist that believe that operation a closed registry will ultimate lead to the collapse of pure breed dogs, unless registration groups like the AKC change there registration practices.
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