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Truce?

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Truce?

Post Number:#1  Unread postby Winterwolf » Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:56 pm


WARNING: This post addresses a topic which is potentially "touchy" for a lot of people. I tried to keep it as inoffensive as possible, so please don't take anything here the wrong way. I love rabbit breeding and, even though I don't raise meat rabbits myself, I don't judge those who do.

Whenever I see a situation that seems to divide people into two violently opposed groups, I generally try to stay in safely neutral territory. However, on the issue of rabbit breeders vs. rabbit rescues, I can't help being saddened by the huge amount of bad-mouthing from both sides. :( I'm on several rabbit breeding forums online as well as several rescue group forums and it really hurts to see the rumors that fly regarding each group's practices. Especially since most of these rumors are quite exaggerated versions of the truth.

For the record, I'm both a rabbit breeder and work in animal rescue. While working at shelters and animal sanctuaries, I get to see many victims of animal abuse. And I'm not talking about animals that simply aren't pampered beyond belief. I mean newborn kittens abandoned on the sides of highways, dogs that have been shot, pitbulls that were half-burned alive (yes, that's happened several times :cry: ), and cats that are severely beaten. If it weren't for these wonderfully dedicated rescue workers, these animals would without a doubt be dead or worse. That is why the ASPCA is very careful about screening potential adopters, you never know what kind of home these poor animals will end up in -- and after all they've been through, they deserve a good home.

On the other side, I also hear a lot of crazy claims being made about supposed "cruelty" in the world of rabbit breeding/showing. What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that you can breed/show your animals and still love them like crazy. :) When rabbits are kept in wire cages, most of the time this is because it is one of the best ways to ensure that the rabbit won't catch diseases like coccidiosis. Most of the rabbits that are shown are certainly not abused. The ARBA standard of perfection requires that each rabbit be healthy and well kept. Any signs of illness or neglect can result in that rabbit being disqualified from showing. And you certainly aren't going to win prizes with a rabbit that isn't being properly cared for.

I think the two biggest things dividing rabbit rescue people and rabbit breeders are:
1: Bad experiences with the wrong kind of people.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with legitimate rescue organizations such as the ASPCA and other similar groups. When people have bad experiences with "rescue" groups, it's usually not a legitimate organization, not attached to the ASPCA, or some overzealous person acting on their own. Also, beware of online "rescue" groups; if they don't provide the proper government certification, there's a VERY large chance they are just out to make a profit by pretending to adopt out rescued animals. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with a breeder who really cares about the rabbits they are breeding and who gives their animals proper care. Yes, there are unscrupulous breeders who are only interested in making a buck and don't care how they get it. But, there are also a lot of breeders who truly love rabbits. For the real rabbit lover, there is a lot of pride and joy in watching those adorable little popples grow into beautiful, healthy rabbits.

2: Everyone has a different definition of "proper care".
What we all have to realize (myself included -- because I'm just as stubborn as anyone else :D ) is that there is more than one "right" way to do something. Just because one person's idea of a rabbit is a free-roaming house pet and another's is a quality show animal, that doesn't mean that either side is necessarily wrong. I think the important we should be focusing on is the rabbits themselves. Are they healthy? Are they being given proper nutrition? Are they happy? If the answers are all "yes", then I think we can agree that the rabbit's owner must be doing something right.

IN CLOSING: It just seems like the war between animal rescues and animal breeders is getting very out of hand. I believe both sides have quite a lot of excellent advice to share on rabbit raising and care. Maybe we all just have to learn how to listen before judging. Perhaps if we all learn to see each other's side of the story, and realize that deep down inside we all share a common love of our animals, maybe there wouldn't be so many of these ugly incidents getting out of control.

Again, I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone. I tried to remain unbiased -- especially since I appear to have one foot on each side of the fence. ;) I'd just love to see a little more cooperation and understanding between breeders and rescuers since, after all, we're all just crazy bunny-obsessed people! :D :lilbunny:
Last edited by Winterwolf on Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#2  Unread postby KenoshaRabbits » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:10 pm


I concur.
The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some.
It takes different strokes to move the world, yes it does. Different strokes to move the world.

If I might add my two cents. I respect anyone's decision to raise a rabbit however they choose to, even a way I would never consider (e.g., pampering a rabbit to the extreme). It is hard to maintain that mutual respect when the other side attacks your way of doing things. And it's probably even harder if the other side personally targets you.

So while it would be great if we could all get along. I don't necessarily begrudge someone for bad mouthing animal rights activists or house rabbit society people. And I don't begrudge people for using a discussion to vent about their problems. Sometimes it's the better way to blow of steam that resorting to less productive confrontation.

So I try to avoid bad-mouthing views and opinions I don't agree with, and forums that express them. And if I see something on here I don't agree with... all I have to do is click on a different topic. No law saying you can't just walk away. I think sometimes we forget that.

And if you disagree, you are required to reread my entire post five times, lol. That was an attempt at a joke.

Now let's all go look at rabbit pics and vids.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#3  Unread postby Prisma » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:48 pm


I'm sorry, but the ASPCA and other big organizations are what PUT breeders in bad and are working to strip ownership...will not support will not ever. They lobby and force laws on to owners that strip rights. Please do more research, look at the laws they get passed that take more than just the "bad" away, they are meant to strip any power any one has besides what they think is right AND little to no money actually gets to ACTUAL care. The few "good" laws they get put through are always trumped by the hundreds of others. I can't go to an actual pet shop any more and buy a pet because of THEIR laws. Always go small rescue/shelter in that thought. I understand every one has different ideals and practices, but when you start making laws and regulations that are anti every thing but your own ideal...nop.

I've been to high kill shelters, adopted 2 dogs (my mistake and will never do again), adopted cats and I do take care of the drop offs that get here or I find. Guess what? I catch heck because I breed BUT I am willing to stop and take care of those that others throw out to die. The place I get cats from, they're not really a shelter/rescue, more of a pound...they don't care as long as they get out their kill rate and conditions are so bad. They work with any one that will work with them. Now that's the kind of attitude I'd like to see, some of them don't like how or where the animals are going, but they have the mind set it is better off to be a barn animal than dead or put down there.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#4  Unread postby Deer Heart » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:40 pm


There's one huge difference between the two groups; "Rescues" are constantly lobbying to take more and more rights away from "breeders" (yes, even the ASPCA). "Breeders" aren't trying to take anyone's rights away, they just want to be left alone to do what they've been doing which is dedicating a large part of their life to an animal/breed they love. (Yes there are bad breeders out there, just don't buy from them, if they're bad enough whatever they were doing is already considered very illegal by the very basic laws that have already been on the books for as long as some of us have been alive; proper food, water, shelter, lighting, ventilation, don't intentionally harm it, and if it gets hurt/sick then treat it properly). Here is where animosity gets a nice fertile spot to grow in, people don't like people telling them what they can and can't do, especially when they have never had experience with it themselves. There's a lot of animal laws and ordinances out where I'm at that I really don't agree with, most things are voted in simply because "that's what is popular and will get people to vote for this guy" (these were backed entirely by ARA groups, mind you). Whether or not it's actually reasonable for the community. I work full time with a legitimate "rescue" (but they call them the "pound", "shelter", "animal control", the "bad guys"), there's countless things that call themselves "rescues" in this county and none of them are real rescues - they are just a place for owners to surrender specific breeds/species. There is no actual "rescue" work going on with them. We are the only one to receive true cruelty case animals **legally**. If these "rescues" acquired any cruelty case animals **legally** it was after we finally got custody through court systems and asked them to take any special cases (maybe about 1 out of 100 animals and usually it is the ones that are in best shape and always after we already gave them the treatments they needed, just to get them out of the way for the really horrible ones that require our full staff's attention). Our real "rescues" are things that would have died if we did not interfere.

Here's a good example of good intentions from "rescues" in my area gone awry. I don't agree with tethering. I would never buy a puppy from someone who tethers their dogs. I won't do it unless in extreme circumstances and our ordinances already provided very specific guidelines for doing so that were more than appropriate to evade *abusive* tethering. But, I recognize the need for it throughout this county. A lot of places are extremely poverty stricken and most people supply these dogs, despite their tethers, far more than enough to thrive. Most only tethered when at work so dogs could have fresh air despite a lack of fence. Not only that, but it supplied an extra measure of control for overly determined and sometimes dangerous dogs.

The Humane society decided tethering at all was cruel. They wanted it to be so illegal dogs seen on tethers could just be taken right from their owners yards. We fought for medium ground but the result was that you had to stand there the entire time your dog is tethered or else face heavy citations. (we're talking $200 citations).

We got periodic public records requests related to tethering both before and after the law was passed. After the first month of this new law, we saw a huge spike in control and aggressive complaints, we also had close to 100 dogs surrendered by their owners because they had no other way to confine their dogs and because said dogs were extremely attached to their property and owners, they were not adoptable to third parties, all were euthanized. Because of this ordinance, almost 100 dogs were killed in just one month, 100 dogs which would never have bothered anyone, dogs which "maybe might die by strangling themselves on the tether" (which is extremely rare by the way, the humane society never handled that though, we did, and usually when it did happen the owner was violating pre-existing rules already on the books telling owners HOW to properly tether a dog, we're talking once in the 5 years I've been working there and even then the necropsy indicated the dog died of heat exposure, it just happened to be on a tether at the time, this was 2 years AFTER tethering became illegal :| What does that tell you? ) were guaranteed their deaths. This is not even taking into account the MASSIVE influx of bites and control violations. Dogs are still coming in to be put down because owners can't afford a *legal* way to keep their dogs anymore because of this.

So yes, there's a lot of reasonable animosity from some folks. Myself included. "Rescues" made us kill dogs that were perfectly happy where they were because they didn't "agree" with their control methods. Based on false theories. (BTW, no, you're not more likely to be bitten by a dog on a tether. You're more likely to be bitten by a dog running loose not on its property where that tether was effectively keeping it. Maybe you shouldn't be entering random peoples yards to be bitten by their properly confined tethered dogs, hmm?)


How would you feel towards a group that systematically and frequently works to ruin your livlihood, ability to peacefully keep what you want, and outright seeks to run you out of business? I don't think the ASPCA (and especially House rabbit society) thinks there's a single good "breeder" in existence. If you even suggested to them you were thinking about breeding they would gasp in horror and use everything to turn you to a "rescue" instead.

(As an added annoyance, we get a lot of calls from ARAs because they don't like that homeless people can have dogs... :| these calls infuriate me. It takes a special kind of mindset to deliberately ignore the struggle of your fellow man and go "you know what, you don't deserve to have a dog. You need a house to have a dog. So I'm going to call the police on you so they take the one thing you have left that likely matters to you." Are we really so warped in the head?)
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#5  Unread postby Winterwolf » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:51 pm


As I said in my original post, I'm both a breeder and an animal rescue person, so I'm not "taking sides" here. Obviously, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and there will always be disagreements between these two groups, I just wish people would not be so quick to judge all animal rescue groups (especially ASPCA, which does some very worthy and commendable work) because of the actions of those over-zealous ARAs and PETA people. Likewise, too many rescue people are far too quick to judge all breeders because of the actions of those unscrupulous and untrustworthy breeders. It'd just be nice if both sides would learn to not stereotype the other side so much.

Deer Heart wrote:How would you feel towards a group that systematically and frequently works to ruin your livlihood, ability to peacefully keep what you want, and outright seeks to run you out of business? I don't think the ASPCA (and especially House rabbit society) thinks there's a single good "breeder" in existence.


Ironically, I actually breed rabbits as a hobby and work for the ASPCA. :) And I'm certainly not the only rescue person who also breeds animals. Can't speak personally for House Rabbit Society people because I've never had a close association with them (although the few times I've had to work with them, they were definitely unhappy when they found out that I breed rabbits :shock: ) but they really do believe that what they are doing is right for the rabbits. Yes, they take it too far. Yes, they shouldn't be accusing every rabbit breeder of "cruelty". But I've found that by bringing rescue people to my rabbitry and showing them how healthy and happy my rabbits really are, they usually back off and realize that it's not actually cruel to keep rabbits outside.

Again, I'm not trying to justify the way ARAs act towards breeders; and I definitely understand your frustration towards the ARAs. I think it's terrible how often they jump to conclusions the second they hear "animal breeder". On the other hand, breeders are just as quick to assume "PETA Nazi" whenever they hear that someone is an animal rescue person. Basically, we shouldn't judge a book by its cover.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#6  Unread postby Deer Heart » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:08 pm


Frankly, I would have less animosity if "rescues" stopped calling themselves that if they did not actually perform any rescue work (a vast majority :|). Call it a "haven", a "stop over", something that actually says what they do. Unless they've been in a hoarder house helping to seize close to 100+ animals when that comes up (twice this year already), then they're no rescue (miraculously none of these so called "rescues" come forward even after we gain legal custody, we have to beg them to take 1 or 2 animals. If they do take them, they are very picky as to which ones, and are quick to go around saying they rescued them from this huge case immediately once transferred. They did not. They didn't rescue anything. We gave it to them for free after we took care of it. Even spayed/neutered/vaccinated/and microchipped it for them. :| Just, no.

You may see it as just not seeing eye to eye, but I, personally, see it as being bullied all the time - living in absolute fear - because I'm being held to the unreasonable standards of people without a face who have never been there or tried it. People who would proudly proclaim they "rescued" my beloved animals after stealing them. An entity you never know the true shape of.

I can't discuss a huge part of my life in public because someone might feel my rabbits need to be "liberated". Especially when their offspring are raised for meat.

It is a frustrating feeling. One "rescues" will never have to feel, as proven by their desire to throw the fact they work with/own/adopted from rescues as if they want their ass kissed for their humanity being better than mine. I wont even mention where I work in public because despite being the only real rescue in this entire county, we are the "dog killers".
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#7  Unread postby Winterwolf » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:13 pm


Deer Heart wrote:Frankly, I would have less animosity if "rescues" stopped calling themselves that if they did not actually perform any rescue work (a vast majority :|). Call it a "haven", a "stop over", something that actually says what they do. Unless they've been in a hoarder house helping to seize close to 100+ animals when that comes up (twice this year already), then they're no rescue (miraculously none of these so called "rescues" come forward even after we gain legal custody, we have to beg them to take 1 or 2 animals. If they do take them, they are very picky as to which ones, and are quick to go around saying they rescued them from this huge case immediately once transferred. They did not. They didn't rescue anything. We gave it to them for free after we took care of it. Even spayed/neutered/vaccinated/and microchipped it for them. :| Just, no.


:yeahthat: Gotta agree with you there. Thankfully, where I live a lot of the non-rescue shelters simply call themselves "sanctuaries" so people will know the difference. Not all of them do that, though. Several of the rescues I work for are 'real rescues' in that we investigate claims of animal abuse and (if the court rules in our favor) we rehabilitate the animals and adopt them out. And, yes, we always end up begging the other supposed "rescue" shelters to help out. :roll: They should just call themselves sanctuaries if they're not willing to actually rescue animals.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#8  Unread postby akane » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:49 pm


You don't know which "rescues" or other groups are the sane ones that won't stab you in the back when they learn you are breeding. That means you have to be paranoid of all of them if you truly care about your animals. Like Deer Heart said it's a life of fear and bullying. Saying some aren't that unreasonable doesn't really help because we don't know who they are. The ASPCA is certainly not innocent. I will never support them. I will support small, local groups and individuals that have proven they are willing to work with people's lifestyles and the individual animals.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#9  Unread postby Zass » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:43 pm


There is mainly one group attacking, and one group demonstrating a defensive reaction. Both sides take it to far on occasion.
I also cringe when I read some of the AR hating posts.
But, it's only one of those sides that is is overwhelmingly aggressive, to the point of damaging homes and stealing property, or lobbying to change or pass laws that strip people of their rights.

I myself live in fear that someone may steal or release my animals to "liberate" them someday.

Breeders and pet owners are legitimately afraid of having their rights, happiness, livelihoods, and companions taken away from them.

They are also afraid of bullying, harassment, and social ostracism.

The fear is legitimate, as these things have been occurring at an alarming rate.

The other side just wants control.
The motives behind it might be good (I get it, I love animals too, and HATE seeing any species injured or neglected), but...
Zealotry is a slippery slope that historically tends towards disastrous results.

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#10  Unread postby LittleFluffyBunnies » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:28 am


I haven't really come across much of this battle living in my area.
I do know that there are many people devoted to rescuing here that have a saying "adopt, don't shop." They are saying that all breeders should be shut down. But, have they really thought of this? If all breeders are shut down, all dogs spayed and neutered, once these generations die where will all of the pets be? Do they realize some breeders are humane, and that they really love their animals? Do they realize said breeders are working to improve their breed so it can be enjoyed by many? I do know that there are way too many unfixed dogs around, leading to unscrupulous breeding just for money and an overpopulation of dogs, meaning 100s have to be put down. But, they should not judge all breeders.

I have found the local SPCA to be easy to work with, helpful, and they truly care. They perform house checks, paperwork, and so on. They only charge a small fee for the dog, which is much less then vaccinating and sterilising the animal yourself. I beleive you are required to own a fenced yard to adopt, but I'm not sure. I don't think they will take away a dog that is not actually a case of animal cruelty. They understand the love between owner and pet. They give low cost vaccinations, flea and tick treatment and health care to the underpriviledged. They do checks to look at cruelty cases, and give owners a second chance. They don't like tethers, but if the animal has access to shelter, food and water, and is properly cared for, they allow it. They rescue many animals that actually needed it. They may be wrong in some cases, but I believe all rescues should behave in this way. It would make it much easier. I also love the rescue groups that go to poor communities and provide food, health care, and training classes to the dogs there. I have heard cases where owners fed their dog sawdust because he was starving and they had no food for him, and they wanted to fill his belly. Did they take this dog away? Thankfully not, they knew he was loved and cherished, so they provided food for him. That said, there are also many rescue groups that take away dogs like these, instead of helping the owners provide. I do believe that you should have enough to provide for a dog before buying one, but if you are very poor, I can understand the struggles as you try to support your possibly only friend with the small amount you support yourself with.

The good news is that in my area of South Africa rabbits can be bred without scrutiny. But I know in other areas there are rabbit rescues that may behave wrongly.

I understand that there are very ridiculous people on both sides. But before judging someone on what they do, investigate first. This person may be a very good breeder who loves their animals, or they may be an honest rescue doing good work. There should be some way to reach an agreement.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#11  Unread postby Winterwolf » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:09 am


:goodpost:
Excellent post, LFB! I'm glad to hear that the SPCA in your area is doing so much to help pet owners.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#12  Unread postby Dood » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:58 am


I've been both a breeder and rescuer/rehabilitator/re-homer for a wide range of species (dogs, cats, ferrets, rats, horses, pigs, rabbits) and find the long term breeders and the people who are administrators of established rescues (ie SPCA, Humane Societies, town shelters) to be the most reasonable and sane, at least in my area

It's the "back yard" breeders and rescues (that rarely last more than a year or two or five :mrgreen: and usually gloat about a "no kill" policy :angry: ) that are the worst in the industry

Breeders who have "oops litters" because they are too darn cheap to neuter their animals or responsible enough to keep them away from the opposite sex or who want their "kids to experience the miracle of life" or to make a few bucks :cry: and who haven't spent a dime or veterinary care or done any research at all on the care of a female and her offspring nor any planning on what to do with the babies if they don't sell - other than dump them at the shelter, or more often than not, in a field

Rescuers who are irrational about saving animals lives at ANY cost and don't consider the bigger picture and the quality of life for the animal or the safety of the pubic (and other critters) when permenantly disabled and/or aggressive and/or contagious animals are "saved" and re-homed

And I agree that it is usually the ARA nuts who are bashing breeders.

Every

Single

Time

I put up a pet or meat rabbit ad in the local classifieds I get comments like
"why are you contributing to the pet over population problem?"
or
"you're going to hell" :shock:

Really!

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#13  Unread postby Marinea » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:24 am


As to the root of the disagreement between the breeders and the ARA folks, personally, I believe a lot of the issue comes down to environment and experience. Growing up in metropolitan centers, a person doesn't see a lot of sustainable, dedicated animal husbandry. As it is outside of their personal experience, it can be easy to believe horror stories about breeders and animal treatment, and a few of those stories, true or apocryphal, can become the basis of one's beliefs about breeding as a whole. Simply because they have never seen it for themselves, or perhaps because they have seen pictures of the rare true horrors that are out there.

On the other hand, if you have grown up in or been exposed to a responsible breeder of some species of animal, you see a different picture. You may see that a breeder depends on those animals for their livelihood, or at a more basic level, depends on those animals for food, their very existence. The animals are treated as the valuable resource they are. They may not be spoiled, or anthropomorphized into "mini furry human babies", but they are well treated and tended.

People will always form opinions without experience. My biggest issue with some of the rabid ARA groups out there is that they rely on that. They splash pictures of the horror stories (which are bad and do need to be addressed), but instead of saying "We investigated 100 claims and found this one hoarder case", they try to push the idea that the abuser is the norm, trying to morph EVERY breeder into a horror story. They try to pass laws based on that campaign of misinformation. And it seems to be working.

I believe that is what is driving the heated emotions on both sides of this. People are becoming entrenched in their positions as names are called and malicious actions are taken on both sides. Open, rational discussion is becoming more rare. How do we fix it? No idea.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#14  Unread postby macksmom98 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:35 pm


All of these points seem to be good ones:) I just got into an argument on facebook the other day. On one of my Holland group sites, a breeder was breeding for quality pets and asking some questions. Another breeder came on and became very defensive, saying that no one should be breeding pet rabbits. That when you breed for show quality, you will get pet quality mixed in, and thats enough pet rabbits. We are slow to getting into the rabbit business, and for us it was much easier to learn with pets. The sales from them are helping to keep our operation running, and making it possible for my daughter to participate in 4-h as well as start showing. We are ARBA members, and our pet Holland Lops live a very happy life. I understand that breeding rabbits should be done responsibly, but that seems to mean different things to different people. We don't breed known genetic faults, give our girls a rest in the hot TX summer heat, and will not crossbreed. We exercise our buns in and outdoors, and they are well cared for happy bunnies. In my mind this is being responsible, but this other person did not agree. People like that come across as being self centered, wanting to weed out the competition, and just over all not nice. Even with 4-H I am learning that folks are not willing to share too much or be too helpful, that they keep their breeder sources secret. I just feel like we are all living this life together, and if I can help someone else I will. I appreciate the atmosphere and environment here on rabbittalk. I do realize that sometimes people need some help to understand how to do things, but overall the advice from here is friendly and people care:)

__________Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:29 pm __________

Marinea wrote:I believe that is what is driving the heated emotions on both sides of this. People are becoming entrenched in their positions as names are called and malicious actions are taken on both sides. Open, rational discussion is becoming more rare. How do we fix it? No idea.


I think this stems from our society now, where we are constantly being told that we are all right. The message being sent is that wrong is relative and how you feel doesn't just matter, but its the most important. So we are not trying to work with each other and have discussions, but rather building ourselves up to let our heated emotions fester and control us, instead of trying to live and work with others........we can also do so much on our own, or buy goods or services that we really don't NEED each other in the same ways we used to. My grandparents homesteaded and needed each other in a way that just doesn't happen anymore. I think its also a large reason for our high divorce rate too....

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#15  Unread postby Deer Heart » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:49 pm


I also forgot to mention, no one here has bashed legitimate rescues that I have ever seen. People are clearly referring to the so called "rescues" which aren't really rescues based on what we discussed and Extreme ARAs (the groups that legitimately make our lives heck). I don't know anyone here that has ever been upset by a legitimate rescue conducting legitimate rescue work (a lot of members here do work in rescue work in some way or another, they just don't bring it up unless it is part of the actual discussion). The problem we see is theft and "rescues"(I use quotation marks here because they aren't but they call themselves that) knowingly accepting stolen animals (or being the ones to steal them in the first place) and "adopting" (selling them is the reality) them out as fast as they can so the true owner could never possibly get them back. This happens a LOT more than you think. I get threats from people claiming they are going to "rescue" animals illegally (they flat out state they're going to trespass and steal the persons dog/chickens/rabbits/horses/etc., "rescue it") if we don't take it from their owners for absolutely ridiculous reasons (like they utilize a dog crate when at work or my personal favorite "they don't play with it enough") and a strong push for some frankly ridiculous laws that force us to keep our animals to their standards and not just what is reasonable. This absolutely IS something ASPCA in particular is guilty of, they specifically state it as the mission statement that they work to change laws to "better protect animals" as well as some Humane societies, it is right on their website, (by the way, there is still no legal definition of "puppy mill", it is just a slang blanket statement thrown around at every dog breeder at least once, especially if they have more than 3 breeding dogs or utilize any crates or outdoor kennels). If dogs are in cages that they can barely move in/are dirty/have diseases/injuries/etc etc etc - this is a problem! This is already something that is on the books! Whether you have one dog or 200, it is the same across the board and that way works. You don't need to slap a completely subjective "puppy mill" label on it. Unsanitary and unsafe conditions are exactly that and need to be addressed as such (I find most of their own pictures of "puppy mills" laughable - 4 dogs in spotless crates more than appropriately sized? A "puppy mill"? Really??? Seriously - http://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty/puppy-mills read that carefully, look at most of the pictures and really think about what they are wanting to have passed, their apparent idea of what makes it that thing they want to make illegal, what laws already exist, and where this may or may not stop at if they get their way).

I'm not saying your specific facility does that but this is the goal and the reason the ASPCA was created, some facilities are now in enforcement mode instead as that is what we really need help with in this country, but not all of them, some are still stuck in the "lets make more laws" mindset which is what we don't need right now. It's hard enough getting some agencies to even make owners follow basic necessities like supplying food or water.

This is why breeders specifically name *them* as a problem, because their laws are starting to skew and become far too grey. Your facility is just better managed under the "name" of ASPCA and the trickle down of donations (which is very small based on their reports of income vs. outcome). Yours is geared to actual rescue work and not the lobbying for insane things they themselves admit can't be properly defined, yet they still want to make that thing that can't be defined illegal (which is madness).
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