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Truce?

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#16  Unread postby Zass » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:27 pm


If the rescue side would take a huge step back from attacking all animal breeding, or from promoting laws that did,
I have a hunch the breeding side would probably disarm quickly.
A good amount of breeders I have met are strongly pro-rescue, and offer their facilities to provide care and shelter for animals in need, and their experience to help teach others how to improve living conditions and care.

Now, lets go to a rescue forum and ask the members politely to refrain from slandering breeders. :D

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#17  Unread postby heritage » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:13 pm


Zass wrote:If the rescue side would take a huge step back from attacking all animal breeding, or from promoting laws that did,
I have a hunch the breeding side would probably disarm quickly.
A good amount of breeders I have met are strongly pro-rescue, and offer their facilities to provide care and shelter for animals in need, and their experience to help teach others how to improve living conditions and care.

Now, lets go to a rescue forum and ask the members politely to refrain from slandering breeders. :D


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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#18  Unread postby Cookie & Co. » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:35 am


- I live in New Zealand for context -
I agree with you so much. I adopted/rescued my cats and inside bunnies, however I purchased my breeding mini lops. It frustrates me so much when people instantly assume I am immoral and unethical because I breed, when really I care so much for the little creatures and just want to let other people experience the joy I get from them. I have been attacked so many times from people who tell me I'm contributing to overpopulation, when in actual fact I check my city's only animal rescue monthly, last month there was 2 rabbits who were already adopted and waiting to be picked up. None without homes. The people attacking me often seem to forget that something they experience may be totally different in another country. My bunnies live in a type of barn I built for them, it has one wall lined with large, wooden (sterilised) hutches, and the other three are chicken wire so the bunnies get fresh air and a cool breeze. In winter I roll down thick plastic curtains and have a heater going. They take turns at running free range over my lifestyle block during the day, and when they aren't running around they are in large runs (to protect bucks from bucks, does from does). I love them very much, and I think certain aggressive animal rights activists should do some research before they go threatening the people on their side.

On the other hand, I have seen barns disgust me. Wire cages hanging from the ceiling, litter collected in plastic tubs underneath that only get changed once a month, the flies so bad the rabbits had given up swatting them away. And the breeder wondered why I refused to purchase her bunny and reported her. The issue I have with wire cages is not the wire itself, but the fact that they tend to be very small. I also have a problem with breeders so openly insulting ARAs, I don't think they ever try to empathise with the ARAs. It's very difficult for a animal lover to grasp the concept of meat breeding: trapping rabbits in tiny wire cages then butchering them. It sounds unethical when you put it that way, and if you've never actually talked to a meat breeder that's the only way it will have ever been phrased to you. Just remember that extreme ARAs see bunnies as tiny humans, which is quite a naive perspective but that's how they see the issue.

Anyway, my point is, try to empathise with the other side of the argument. Kindly inform them on why they are wrong, and unless they are seriously crazy they will back down. Have a lifetime return policy (but not refund obviously) so you know your kits will never end up abandoned. And most importantly, actually take on board some of the things they suggest, because knowledge about rabbits is constantly evolving and if you never change your ways, they will quickly become outdated. I'm obviously not talking about the sort of people that release or steal your rabbits when you aren't home, they should be locked up.

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#19  Unread postby Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:24 am


Maybe there is a difference because of geography, ARAs are firstly not animal lovers. They want to END all animal use; no pets no food no ownership of any kind for any reason. They do not love animals in the context of caring, they want to liberate them from humans.

An animal lover cares deeply for an animal, doesn't want any harm to come to them, and very well may have pets of their own. An animal lover can be duped by an AR, but they are not the same. Many AR use animal lovers to get and gain ground on laws and get funds to feed their programs to end animal ownership of all kinds. They also use these same people to mole for information on breeders, they pose as some one wanting to learn and then go after them. It doesn't matter what conditions or how the rabbits (or other animals for that matter are kept), its wrong and they do every thing to stop them one way or another.

There is nothing wrong with wire cages, one square foot per pound of body weight is perfectly fine. Every one has their own ways of keeping and doing things, but to an ARA there is NO such thing as differences being okay. So it wouldn't matter how they were kept or how big the cage is, they are in human care and therefore need liberated.

There is no empathizing with some one who cannot understand there are different ways to do things. An AR doesn't care, they have one goal. It doesn't matter what kind of policy a person as if the buyer doesn't follow through, you could take back and give explicit care instructions but the buyer may not follow one thing on those sheets. A breeder cannot control another person's actions, therefor cannot control a bad owner and prevent one from dumping an animal in a shelter/rescue/etc. Even shelters/rescues, though none like to admit it, have issues keeping people in check and get returns.

I've watched numerous breeders go under and have to fight because they tried to show some one how they raised their show rabbits or meat rabbits. Some weren't perfect, but they weren't even given a chance to fix supposed issues. It was automatically bad breeder, ill person, rabbits/animals abused, rescue needed, get them...I know a rescue/shelter/AR in the same situation wouldn't have the same things done to them.

Even though I take in dogs, cats, and other animals left to die in the rural area...I'm still evil and shouldn't have animals if you go by an AR. I've been cursed and cussed by AR types and "animal lovers" who were dooped by AR propaganda IN public. I have had a few animal lovers, true animal lovers, disagree with me keeping my rabbits the way I do, BUT they said they understand that there are many many ways that animals can be kept happy and healthy, just don't talk about processing or such in front of them...which IS OK. I have NEVER cursed or cussed such a person, I have NEVER posted personal information from a shelter/rescue/AR/"animal lover" to a group to be used to take their animals or "liberate" them. It doesn't matter that I just took half my paycheck to care for a litter of kittens some one thrown away, doesn't matter I spent my last 20.00 on kitten chow because I got a call that x found a baby and they can't keep it...it needs to go or they're going to "get rid" of it or whatever the case may be on that given day.

__________Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:20 am __________

Deleted copy post.

I should add I do have a sales policy, always have had lifetime return, but I am fully aware that unless I take it to court...can't really do any thing. I also give booklets and more, so its not a matter of just not wanting to do it or haven't been when it comes to that.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#20  Unread postby akane » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:10 am


We would all be happy to leave the ARA or anti-breeders to live out their lives how they wish. You won't get it from the other side though. Occasionally you can make someone rethink their opinions because many have just never been exposed to anything else but the risk is so high no one wants to try it.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#21  Unread postby Cookie & Co. » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:03 am


Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry wrote:Maybe there is a difference because of geography, ARAs are firstly not animal lovers. They want to END all animal use; no pets no food no ownership of any kind for any reason. They do not love animals in the context of caring, they want to liberate them from humans.


You are definitely right, your ARAs sound waaaaay different from ours. Here in New Zealand a lot people proudly call themselves an Animal Rights Activist, and all they do is hold a SPCA donation bucket every couple of months and protest things like fracking deep sea trawling. We have passed many laws in New Zealand that have drastically helped end animal abuse, for example you cannot purchase animals if you're under 16, every dog owner gets their property inspected once a year etc.
I apologise for my previous comments, I didn't quite understand how bad it got in America. Even though I've never experienced what you have, I'm kinda rethinking my open rabbitry!
I don't understand how logically anyone could ever oppose pets, if no one had pets then domestic cats, dogs, rabbits etc would go extinct, or be living a terrible life on the street. If kept properly, domestic animals experience far more joy then wild animals as they don't fear for their lives.
I know wire cages aren't that bad, I in no way think the wire bottom is harmful as it helps keep them clean and sanitary, I'm just saying larger breeds like New Zealand whites shouldn't really be confined to a 2 foot by 2 foot cage without using a run every couple of days.

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#22  Unread postby Zass » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:20 pm


Cookie & Co. wrote:
Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry wrote:Maybe there is a difference because of geography, ARAs are firstly not animal lovers. They want to END all animal use; no pets no food no ownership of any kind for any reason. They do not love animals in the context of caring, they want to liberate them from humans.


You are definitely right, your ARAs sound waaaaay different from ours. Here in New Zealand a lot people proudly call themselves an Animal Rights Activist, and all they do is hold a SPCA donation bucket every couple of months and protest things like fracking deep sea trawling. We have passed many laws in New Zealand that have drastically helped end animal abuse, for example you cannot purchase animals if you're under 16, every dog owner gets their property inspected once a year etc.
I apologise for my previous comments, I didn't quite understand how bad it got in America. Even though I've never experienced what you have, I'm kinda rethinking my open rabbitry!
I don't understand how logically anyone could ever oppose pets, if no one had pets then domestic cats, dogs, rabbits etc would go extinct, or be living a terrible life on the street. If kept properly, domestic animals experience far more joy then wild animals as they don't fear for their lives.
I know wire cages aren't that bad, I in no way think the wire bottom is harmful as it helps keep them clean and sanitary, I'm just saying larger breeds like New Zealand whites shouldn't really be confined to a 2 foot by 2 foot cage without using a run every couple of days.


I agree with you Cookie & co. Most small scale animal breeders get involved because they love animals. ARA's here WANT domestic animals to go extinct.
They want to completely end the practice of domestication, and human association with animals, which they feel is always cruel.

Where I see humans and other animals co-evolving, with both species benefiting,
they see one species(humans) always taking advantage of another species, and the other species always suffering.

Never mind that current scientific evidence suggests that dogs have been our willing partners for something like 27,000–40,000 years.

Back to topic...
Small cages bother me too, and that includes the vast majority of solid bottomed pet store cages sold in the US.

I do cringe when I see someone on a meat rabbit group declare that they are just for meat so their comfort really isn't a priority.

I don't hate it enough to bother people for having that opinion though, or enough to try to pass laws to make their activity illegal.

I just do not believe that I deserve that much control over anther persons life and livelihood based on my own beliefs.
I also feel that I could not do enough to please everyone either, so who am I to judge? Something like that.

I do keep mine in wire cages after all, for their health, because I am faced with a choice between sickness, routine medication, or wire, and I prefer to raise them without routine meds, but I can't stand watching kits suffer and die due to disease. It's too heartbreaking.

I'm still worried that someone my come and "liberate" my bunnies by freeing them (AKA, making dinner for other predators, instead of people) or taking them to a "shelter," which in this part of the world too often means tiny pet store cages often stacked on top of each other in someone's garage(often a legitimate hoarder,) with limited or no veterinary care (too expensive for the income level of the area), combined with increased risk of disease, and a refusal to provide euthanasia to chronically ill, incurably contagious, or wounded animals.

Call it a worst case scenario, but there is a reason ASPCA seems to routinely raid shelters in PA and OH. The result typically being euthanasia for most animals.
Last edited by Zass on Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#23  Unread postby Random Rabbit » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:52 pm


Cookie & Co. wrote:, if no one had pets then domestic cats, dogs, rabbits etc would go extinct,



Sadly the fearless leader of the National human group H$U$... has said... "One generation and Out" referring to spaying and neutering Every dog and cat in our country.
The leader of the p gang here works endlessly to have their group kill as many animals as they can..."Better dead than living with humans"... is their mantra.

They are a Far cry from Animal Welfare.....and i do support animal welfare.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#24  Unread postby MaggieJ » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:08 pm


There is a huge difference between animal rights and animal welfare. Animal welfare promotes a good life for animals. Animal rights only wants their extinction. And how that can be construed as promoting their "rights" is beyond me.

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#25  Unread postby Harelady » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:42 pm


I tend to keep out of the conversations in my rabbit facebook groups about rescues and ARA's. I don't mind good rescues at all. They are helping the animals that are in need. But I don't get why all the bad mouthing on breeders from pet owners and some rescues and bad mouthing pet owners and rescues by breeders. I would like us all to get alone since we all love rabbits right. (I know a dream that may never happen).

It seems to be a whole lot of disagreement on care and the use of rabbits from what I can tell. Some people don't like rabbits to be used for meat or fiber. Some people don't like wire cages. To me I don't see a problem with either opinion. What I don't like is the thought that there opinion on care and purpose is the only right way. That it seems to me where this whole us verse them comes in between breeders, rescues, and pet owners. Whom I have met some really nice people in each category.

I breed rabbits and also sometimes will re-home a bunny for someone. I currently got one today. An mix breed buck with an unknown age and history. Sweet little guy needed some grooming due to a few mats and defiantly needs a better diet. But in good shape and I hope to find a good pet home for him. Seems I am the go to person to re-home rabbits since I raise them. I wish these pet owners would try harder to find homes for there pets on their own. But I cannot say no so that half the problem.

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#26  Unread postby MaggieJ » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:00 pm


Late in 2009, when we started this site, one of the goals we had in mind was to foster tolerance and understanding among the many types of rabbit owners.

We have welcomed everyone who has an interest in rabbits for whatever reason . . . and our members have worked very hard to show respect and good will to other members who may do things differently or have different goals. There has been very little conflict and almost no bad-mouthing here on RabbitTalk.

Pat yourselves on the back, RabbitTalkers, and keep up the good work! :bouncy:

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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#27  Unread postby akane » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:55 pm


It's one of the only sites pretty much any topic can be discussed. There's a forum I go to (when really really bored) that can turn anything into a problem with personal attacks. I was talking to a couple of them in chat about how things run here and they say it's not possible. They wouldn't believe me.
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Re: Truce?

Post Number:#28  Unread postby Miss M » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:43 pm


We have had a few people sign up and then see the posts about meat and freak out a little. We just calmly explain that this is one of only two forums we know of where meat rabbits are discussed. There are many pet rabbit forums, so we let them know that if they cannot handle the meat rabbit posts (which are not confined to the meat rabbit forum), that they may be better suited to another forum. :)

But it is awesome that we can have all sorts of conversations on here about just about anything here, and the Mods very rarely have to step in to do anything more than participate in the chat themselves. :D
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