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avdpas77":g5ficebd said:
OK everyone, I am looking for some "chocolate" and "otter" (tan) genes in a larger rabbit.

My ideal would be a cholate otter. But I will take what I can get.

So........ what kind of larger rabbits currently have the chocolate and/ or otter genes? I get the idea some might be available in Rex. Anybody have any other ideas?
The only other breed is the Silver Martin, they come in chocolate too. They are however a full pound smaller than the Rex which is 10 and a half pounds. Satins are around 11 pounds but don't have chocolate or the tan pattern. They do come in broken though.The breed Tan is only about 6lbs and a semi arch body type. I think the Rex is your best bet for meat.Rex fur is recessive so you don't necessarily have to deal with it in your crosses if you don't care for it.
 
Devon's Mom Lauren":2dhik4oe said:
avdpas77":2dhik4oe said:
OK everyone, I am looking for some "chocolate" and "otter" (tan) genes in a larger rabbit.

My ideal would be a cholate otter. But I will take what I can get.

So........ what kind of larger rabbits currently have the chocolate and/ or otter genes? I get the idea some might be available in Rex. Anybody have any other ideas?
The only other breed is the Silver Martin, they come in chocolate too. They are however a full pound smaller than the Rex which is 10 and a half pounds. Satins are around 11 pounds but don't have chocolate or the tan pattern. They do come in broken though.The breed Tan is only about 6lbs and a semi arch body type. I think the Rex is your best bet for meat.Rex fur is recessive so you don't necessarily have to deal with it in your crosses if you don't care for it.

According to one of the articles on satins on the ARBA site, the Satins DO come in chocolate and otter...

The Satin rabbit breed can be found in a variety of colors including black, blue, Californian, broken group (excluding Californian and white), chinchilla, chocolate, copper, red, Siamese, and the ruby-eyed white. The American Rabbit Breeders Association (ARBA) has also recognized otter in black, blue, chocolate and lilac.

Even if you don't find the color you want...those Satins are gorgeous. wow....
 
Those who are not being carefull with extension cords and heaters in their rabbitry, might want to consider this essay by Charles Lamb:
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/mf/elia1/pig.htm

Oh, and don't bite your tongue ;)

__________ Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:52 am __________

A few musings about rabbit hutch design.

__________ Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:54 am __________

The picture shrinking software "hoo-doo'd" me :p
er.......click on the picture to be able to read it.
 

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As I have spoken of before, I have made a number of different cages over the years, and still have my 35 year old cage (probably getting more like 40 now). This cage was made from lessons I learned when I had rabbits years ago, and incorporated a lot of ideas that helped it survive. The major problem I had with this model was maintenance. Every year, I would pull it out and wire brush it down well and paint the floor and bottom few inches of the sides. When I built my addition cages a few years back, I tried to cover everything I could that would cause rust and corrosion. All my cages are made in 10’ strips containing 3 compartments (except the buck cage)

One of the big problems was where the sides were joined. J clips are not galvanized well, and also collect dirt, urine, and feces, so they are often the first place rust starts. I had solved that in the original cage, by getting wider floor wire, and bending it up fore and rear about 3” (this also saved me the price of buying so much “baby saver wire”) This was a big help in keeping the cages clean and rust free, but still there were problems.

Once that was accomplished, I started to looking into the causes of other rust problems that start occurring after a couple of years. I had learned to keep the “potty corners” clean with a wire brush every few weeks, to prevent any fur and calcium build up. It only takes a few minutes to do all the cages (some rabbits cause a lot more problems than others) and proved to be well worth the time spent. Still there was the problems caused by simple wear. Over a couple of years the rabbits will cause enough wear by hopping around on the wire that it will start wearing through the galvanizing. I went to “galvanized after welding” wire on the floors and that was a big help. Eventually though, even the thicker galvanizing would start to wear though especially where I brushed it in the corners.

I had worked with “epoxy” paint earlier in my life, and thought it would be worth a try. It is very hard (much harder than the zinc galvanizing), and takes wear well. It is also hear tolerant. A few years ago, I was burning the excess fur build up off with a torch, so that was a necessity. I have since found that a vacuum cleaner works much better, and the rabbits are much less afraid of the noise than I thought. (yeah, shop vacs!) The main objections to epoxy paint are the fact that if will chip with only a little flex, and the price. For it to be cost effective it would have to last. I searched around for the best paint and found that “garage floor” epoxy won’t flex at all. I finally settled on Nason (DuPont) “full-poxy” (483-19 and 491-16) which is a primer for cars. It was available at the local auto-parts store, available in a quart size, and highly rated. (it takes 2 qts. BTW, sealer and activator) Most epoxy comes only in gallons (requiring 2) and even though it is less expensive by volume is much more expensive overall. Furthermore, the Nason would take a small amount of flexing. A year ago last Fall, I took a brand new cage (14 gauge floor) a 3 year old cage (14 gauge floor), and my 35 year old cage (16 gauge floor) and coated all the floors and lower sides with the paint.

Here is what I found after about 16 months of use:
A)The paint will stay on 14 gauge floors (they flex less) but will not stay well on
16 gauge floors.
B) The paint will stick better to galvanizing than it will to straight steel.
C) On the 14 gauge cages, there is no signs the paint is wearing off, even in
potty corners where I use a wire brush.

As some of you know, I use crocks, and when it gets cold the watering crocks can freeze solid over night and crack. Last year I got aluminum crocks for water and like them very well. My only problem with them is that the calcium in our hard water would react with them and form little calcium nodules on the sides and bottoms. These nodules tend to trap gunky stuff which I assume is bacteria. It will brush off with a wire brush or coarse steel wool, but it was a pain. I painted the crocks inside and out with the left over epoxy, and it works great. There is no more reaction with the water, and since the surface is smoother, I can wash them out much easier. I have been setting the frozen ones on top my wood furnace to thaw. They have no trouble with the heat.

So, there you go folks…. My latest update. Hopefully the paint will last a number of years and save a lot of work when it comes to rehabilitating the cages. I will still have to re-do my old cage every year, because apparently the thinner 16 gauge wire, flexes more. (It also tends to “bowl” towards the edge of the cage after a few years of rabbits jumping around, the bottoms of my 14 gauge cages have stayed nice and flat, even though they are quite large; 30x40.)
 
Satins are around 11 pounds but don't have chocolate or the tan pattern.

Satins do come in Chocolate Otter, Black Otter, Lilac Otter,
Blue Otter and Broken color in all four varieties.
Are you looking for some? I have them available year-round.
Ottersatin. :eek:ldtimer:
 
We used a similar heating coffee can keep the water tank of chickens to freeze the first winter I had chickens. Then I bought a floor heated water. So I am paranoid about rats chewing the wiring so now the chickens have hot water only twice a day.
 
ottersatin":3gyrc5jb said:
Satins are around 11 pounds but don't have chocolate or the tan pattern.

Satins do come in Chocolate Otter, Black Otter, Lilac Otter,
Blue Otter and Broken color in all four varieties.
Are you looking for some? I have them available year-round.
Ottersatin. :eek:ldtimer:

Like most of us, would love to, but these distances provide a real problem. I am not sure what the chocolate "pattern" is, I am looking for the chocolate color. If it is mixed with broken or otter or anything else, that is not a problem for me.
 
I just do not take the best pictures I have posted this. If you look carefully The first photo shows the bottom of the cage. The boxes are about 18 in the nest. My cages ae quite high, so that the plastic buckets are closer to the funds.
 
Results of my Colony Experience

I have been trying to differentiate between the different types of colonies as my information will only be pertinent to one type. I guess the two main factors are:
A) inside (building) or outside.
B) diggable or non-diggable floor.

I have spent the last year experimenting with a pair of rabbits in an outside colony with no floor or digging barrier. The buck was left in with the doe. I was interested in the rabbits burrowing because it would provide a place with no wind or drastic temperature changes and allow kits to b raised both in are cold winters and warm summers. We usually get several days of blow 0 F weather here a winter, and several weeks where the temperature never gets above freezing. The summers have high humidity and may stay in the 90-100 degree range for a month or more.

While the results wouldn't be reflective of all colonies, it might provide some thinking points for others to consider.

A) The buck (which got along very well with the doe) would breed the doe soon after she kindled. The average time between litters was 33 days. This kept the doe worn-down weight wise, but she stayed healthy. The original couple of litters averaged around 8 kits, but around the third to forth set the average declined to ~5. I suspect that this was a natural adjustment by the doe to keep healthy.

B) in an outside fenced enclosure, rabbits will tend to burrow towards "structure" That is, the will tend to burrow towards a large rock, wall, or the side of a building. If there is nothing in the enclosure but a barrel or dog house they will try to burrow towards it. I had no trouble with the rabbits trying to burrow under the fence, as one side of my cage was against a shed. They burrowed toward (and underneath) it.

C) Unless it is a quite large enclosure, they will denude it of foliage in a very short time. Also,the manure may pile up faster than it will naturally decompose. My enclosure was 10 x 24 feet, had two adults and their offspring (to about 8 weeks)

D)One of the largest problems was trying to trap out weaning age kits. At any given time, when the kits reached about 8 weeks(exact time of birth was hard to determine until well after the fact), there would be 3 liters in the pen at one time: babies in the nest, kits a bit older than 4 weeks, and kits a bit over 8 weeks. In the winter, one might end up trapping 4 week old kits as well as an 8 week old kits, the 8 week old kit could stand the cold for 4 hours or so, but a single 4 week old kit might not be able to. I had to trap during weekends or evenings.

There is no sign of coccidiosis among my cage raised rabbits. The colony raised rabbits livers indicate slight to serious coccidiosis.

Hope this helps when thinking about their design.
 
Ammonia in the rabbitry


There are often discussions about ammonia in the rabbitry, rightly so, considering the harmful effects of the chemical in the respiratory system of a rabbit. Ammonia breathed into the throat and lungs, is dissolved in the moisture of the tissues and becomes ammonium hydroxide, a caustic substance that damages tissues.

We hear that ammonia comes from the manure. This is “somewhat” correct. Ammonia specifically comes from urea in the urine. There is very little nitrogen in the fecal pellets, themselves, and what there is is mostly bound up in proteins. For those of us who raise rabbits in a shed or a barn, protecting the animals against excessive ammonia is a necessary health precaution. I have dirt floors under my cages and only remove the manure twice a year. If adequate ventilation is provide, one should have no problems.

In fact, a mound of manure under the cages is better than removing the manure frequently. The reason for this can be seen by looking into the chemistry of urea. Urea, (NH2)2 CO, becomes ammonia gas, NH3, in the presence of water and with an enzyme commonly found in the manure, and in the process releases carbon dioxide. Without much oxygen present (in the manure) the NH3 dissolves in additional water and becomes anhydrous ammonia (like ammonia sold in stores) NH4OH. While some of this reacts with other chemicals in the manure, most of it remains in this form. What little ammonia (gas) reacts with water on the surface of the manure and does not sink in, evaporates as ammonia, or reacts with the air to produce nitrous dioxide or N2 (nitrogen gas). It is only the ammonia on the surface that can cause a problem, and normally, with reasonable ventilation, is no problem.

The time that it becomes a problem is when the manure is removed. This exposes fresh ammonium hydroxide to the air, which quickly becomes ammonia in large quantities. It is always best to remove you animals form the shed when removing manure. As one can see, removing the manure, let’s say, once a week, may cause more problem than letting it build up for a long time. Similarly, pans my cause more of a problem, because it spreads out the urea and allows much more ammonia to be release, as there is no depth for it to sink in.

How much ventilation is enough. I was given a tip by and “old timer” who smoked cigars. His method was to smoke a cigar while he was feeding his animals. He would come back in 10 minutes after leaving, and if he could smell any cigar smoke, the ventilation was too little.
 
We have a system where the slant trays drop into a gutter and those in turn drop into a bucket. The pellets mostly stay in the gutter until I push it down to the bucket. The urine runs into the bucket and I usually push all the poop into the bucket, wash down the boards/gutters with water and take the whole bucket out once a day. Would that urine sitting in the bucket cause issues? So far, I have not noticed any really strong ammonia odor...I had thought about maybe adding a little vinegar to the bucket to even out the alkalinity from the ammonia....
 
Shannon,
When you mix ammonium hydroxide and acetic acid, one gets ammonium acetate. It is sort of a whitish salt, but remember, there is calcium and several other salts in rabbit urine and it would be hard to determine what one might end up with. I doubt if any of it would give off toxic fumes, but there might be a couple of better ways to approach the problem.

First adequate ventilation is beneficial even without ammonia present. It will keep your animals healthier. One wants about the best ventilation possible without drafts (droughts). One possibility for you might be to pipe (trough) the urine outside and let it pour into a bucket there. That might work if you are close enough to an outside wall and already have(or don't mind making) a hole through said wall. If you are going to put something in the bucket, I would use some kind of organic material, deep enough so that the level of the urine would always be below the surface. This could be leaves, peat, or rabbit fecal pellets themselves. The urea and ammonia will be more likely contained in the organic complex and there would be less chance of ammonia being lost to the atmosphere. Remember, if you are using the manure to fertilize with, the ammonia/urea is where all the nitrogen is contained. It will loose much of its excellence as a fertilizer with the nitrogen lost.

As always, you may have to experiment a bit to see what will work best in your situation. I have found that the calcium in the urine will tend to build up on a trough or guard no matter how steep it is, and combined with loose hair tend to cause a situation where the flow is so slowed down that a substantial amount of urine is left stick/soaking into this sludge, where it is exposed to give off ammonia. At least the ammonia is given off farther away from the rabbits than trays. Again, your ventilation set up is the most important thing. With enough ventilation (typical hutch for instance) it won't be a problem. I like to keep my shed well ventilated, but enclosed enough that I get some heat benefit in the winter (I have windows that open for the summer). With my situation, the inside of the shed stays 5-10 degrees warmer than the outside on a non-windy winter day. You must work out what will work out best for you with the environment and structures you have.
 
I read a nice article on one of the blogs the other day, I think it was from ladysown about the different varieties of nestboxes. I thought I would mention a word or two about a modification to mine that seems to be an improvement.

I use the standard design wood nestboxes with a 1/4 inch (varnished) pegboard floor. The idea for the pegboard floor came from a website in Washington state or British Columbia and it seemed a good improvement over the solid wood floors with drilled holes that I originally used. (if you chose to try this design, the pegboard must be soaked in linseed oil and then allowed to dry, or it will fall apart with prolonged use)

I have varied the front lip (wall) of the nestbox up and down to try to get the best height to keep the kits in until they are big enough to come out on their own. The best height seems to be about 3 1/2" for me, especially since I usually have an inch or more of hay on the bottom of the box. The problem is, when the kits get 2 weeks or so old and ares starting to explore, that the "wall" getting out is much shorter than the wall getting in, the difference being the pegboard and however deep they have packed down the hay. The height they may have to crawl over to get out may be as little as 2 1/2 inches, but the height to get back in will be 3 1/2 inches or more. I was finding kits on the outside that probably were too small to get back in. I have never lost any (>14 day old kits) this way, but I don't fancy the idea of them being out on the wire for 8 or more hours in the middle of the winter.

My solution was to lay a 2X4 (flat)cut the same width as the box in front of the box. This solution has apparently worked as several hundred kits later I have not had much trouble. Occasionally, one will get a playful doe that doesn't like that board laying there and will push it some place else. I have thought that affixing the 2x4 to the front of the nestbox might be better. I haven't done this as yet, because it makes the box 3 1/2 inches longer, and it is not needed for the first couple of weeks nor after 3 weeks or so when the kits get strong enough to jump. I may try to come up with a way that the board can "hook" over the front of the box with some king of bracket.
 
When I was using standard nest boxes (before I went to colony raising) I used to put a brick in front of the nest box to act as a step. I've never had a doe dislodge something that heavy. And yes, a step of some kind is a great idea to safeguard those precocious explorers. :)
 
I raised show animals, including rabbits, for many years. There were always “culls” to eat, but they weren’t the main purpose. I also raised “show pigeons” for many years, Giant Homers and French Mondains, and had several National champions. The only way to do this, was to buy the best starting stock I could, and keep my purchases (from other champion breeders) in the same line. The quality of show animals mainly depends on two things; conformation, and condition.
The conditioning is something the breeder has control of. It concerns such things as the sheen, the animal being “solid” etc. A great animal, if it is skinny or fat, will not get anywhere. However, an animal in good show condition often has a bit too much fat for an ideal breeder. If the fur, hair or feathers are dull or dirty, or scraggly the animal will likewise not do well at a show. With each animal, there are ways to influence these things, including “timing” the show.
The “conformation” part of the equation is primarily due to genetics. Every breed should be a certain ideal shape, size, etc. These things are determined by a combination of many genes, and the genes producing that “perfect shape” in Seattle, may not be the same combination giving the perfect shape in Orlando. Thus if one buys breeding stock from different successful show breeders in the Southeast, one has a good chance of raising some quality stock. On the other hand, a great buck from Seattle bred with a great doe from Florida may give mostly kits that are completely unfit for show. (This is becoming less and less predominant as champion breeders can show nationally easier.)
It is almost necessary if competing on a high level to purchase stock from breeders in an area that are already somewhat inbred. The chance of hitting on that perfect combination of genes from two totally unrelated animals is immensely slim. A new show breeder, selects stock from successful breeders in the area, whose stock is already related, often “line breeds” that stock, and if he becomes successful, all the people in the area want his stock to breed, because he is winning. New breeders continue this on and on, and one can see that even if they buy from different breeders they are already getting stock that is quite related. They are also selecting offspring by confirmation, not fertility, or vitality. This has been going on for years in many breeds, with only occasional out-crosses.
When I raised the show pigeons, I was also raising a type of pigeon called a “performing roller”. These are selected not on conformation, but vitality and athletic ability. So crossing into groups of birds from other parts of the country was done quite often. The health of these birds, their fertility, their parenting ability, and their vitality were astoundingly greater than their “show champion” cousins. I am using pigeons as an example because, I had the pigeons producing show champions and the performing pigeons at the same time, and the difference in the health, fertility, etc were constantly apparent. Most people raising champion show rabbits, do not (intentionally) raise meat rabbits at the same time because there are enough culls to fill the freezer. Yet, many people raising meat rabbits, end up buying from a show breeder who, of course, has great looking rabbits, that may not be show material, because of a mismatched toenail, or not the right ear length. The trouble is the are probably quite line bred. Many people, considering that may get a few more of the same breed from another breeder a couple of towns away. The trouble is, is that that breeders rabbits are probably related to the first breeders rabbits for the reasons I gave above (this “purchasing from champion breeders” chain has been going on for 100 years in some locals)
I know this has been a bit of rambling, but I needed to establish my premise for raising meat rabbits more successfully. What if, instead of trying to get similar genes together, I tried to get a widely varied set of genes as possible. I could see that the more animals were inbred the less health, fertility, and vigor they had, so may be the opposite should be considered. It was my idea that many of the common “frailties” of rabbits might be caused a shallow gene pool. To test this, I needed to breed from the most diverse gene pool I could. Brazilian rabbits we being talked about in the Rabbit forums at that time, which seemed to be one of the most diverse (from American rabbits) groups available, since I had no rational way to import rabbits. After searching for 6 months or so, I also found a source of San Juan rabbits. San Juan’s are usually raised by beagle breeders and have been substantially interbred with domestic rabbits in the US,. I managed to find some that had (mostly) been kept a pure genetic group since they came off the island. After this, I was mostly left to trying to incorporate diverse varieties of domestic rabbits, attempting to get them from different areas of the country as much as possible. This group contained the following: NZW, French Lop, Flemish Giant, and Californian. Some of these were not “pure bred” but had been crossed with another breed. I was, for instance, able to find a Brazilian, several generations removed from my Brazilian, that had some Harlequin mixed in (All known Brazilians in the US are very related)
The idea was to create the largest possible gene pool I could and maintain it. With each cross that I made with these, attempting to obtain a rabbit 1/6 of each breed. I select offspring out of each cross based on 1) ideal meat ‘blockyness” and size 2) health and vigor) and 3) maternal ability and litter size. When “ties” between kits existed, I selected for disposition and disparate color/pattern relations. (heh, I also sometimes selected for big blocky heads after all other things, which is not a good criterion for a meat rabbit, because it is a waste of feed, but I simply like them) One might wonder what having different colors and patterns have to do with anything. Chromosomes are linked together on genes, and genes do not often break and recombine towards the ends. Keeping different colors, patterns, and modifiers may help insure wider variability. One could tell for sure, if there was a good map of the domestic rabbit genome.
I am now into my 6th generation of crosses. I am not sure how many kits I have raised in the last 4 years or so since this started, but it must be approaching 1000.
I have had (disregarding colony trial) only two kit deaths other than a few that chilled out of the nest box or were born on the wire. No signs of coccidiosis, no problem feeding kits clover in the nest box within 5 or 6 days of birth. (don’t try this with show rabbits) No problem feeding rabbits (I feed pellets) large quantities of greens all at once (again, don’t try this with close bred rabbits) Many of the rabbits won’t overeat and get fat, even if they are given too much food (this seems to be a characteristic from the Brazilians) No problem with mucoid enteritis, this may be more a result of weaning methods and feeding hay, so I can’t directly correlate it with the gene diversity.
My conclusion here, is that if one is raising meat rabbits, they might consider obtaining the most widely diversified stock they can. I have proven conclusively (to myself) that these rabbits are healthier, more fertile, more disease resistant, and have greater vitality, than any of the rabbits I have raised in the past 45 years. Rabbits of the same breed form different areas, especially high quality show rabbits may not only be cousins, they might be siblings. It is easy to forget, that two rabbits born to the same pair, 3 years and 8 kindlings apart, are still brothers and sisters genetically. When you buy that show NZW from the guy in Cincinnati, and mate it to another from that guy in Chicago, remember they may both have bought their stock from champion raiser in Peoria, (who likely did the same thing with rabbits from whoever the big breeder was 10 years before in Nashville, etc, etc, etc.)
 
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