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Pictures! Agouti kit from 2 Self parents? Steel gene

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Pictures! Agouti kit from 2 Self parents? Steel gene

Post Number:#1  Unread postby Zinnia » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:07 pm


Elderberry's kits are a week old today.

Here's the grand-dam's genotype. She's had enough litters here, that I'm confident of her genotype. Nothing out of the ordinary up the line, either.
Cream Aa Bb Cc dd ee (Edited this... just a typo that had read Ee)

The grand-sire is where I feel the trouble is....
Chestnut Agouti
Aa Bb C_ Dd Ee ww But, his sire, grand-sire, gg-sire are Es (Steel) Silver tipped. He may hide either C, c or Cchd according to the pedigree, which includes genotypes, from a pretty savvy breeder.

The dam of the kit in question, Black Self (Elderberry).... Well, I THOUGHT her genotype to be aa Bb C_ Dd Ee. She had one previous litter (with her brother - oops :oops: ). Her brother/sire of that litter was Chestnut. Most all the kits were Agouti, but there were a few Torts, too. Torts, Chestnuts, Chocolate Chestnut, Opal, Fawn, Copper Chestnuts... That's how I determined the guess of her genotype. I think the mystery comes from her... (from her sire's side).

The sire of the kit in question is a Chocolate Self with this known genotype based on the breeders knowledge and another litter he sired.
aa bb Cc Dd Ee Nothing suspicious up the line on his pedigree. He looks true Chocolate and the other litter he sired had very true looking colors - no questions.


For now, here's what I see. She had 7 Chocolate-looking kits that we are calling "carob", :lol: because they never looked true Chocolate to me. Here's why. Most of them are Chocolate all over, but have a slightly duller, darker hue than any other Chocolates I've ever seen, with dark, grayish Chocolate in the inner ears, instead of the bright Chocolate I am used to seeing. So, these guys are a question, too! And, finally, the kit in question is the same, slightly off Chocolate color with a very light belly, under the neck, inside the ears, etc. Really Agouti or Tan Patterned looking, to me. But how on earth could it be either without showing in either parent?? :o Is there something I am missing with the possible Es gene in the grand-sire? This is driving me crazy!

Note: Their mom is Black Self. These photos show them getting Grandma-milk (Cream doe) as these were the kits in need of extra feedings at half the weight of their siblings... Hence the Cream colored mom in the photo.

The Agouti-like kit (on right) and one of the "Carob" kits.
Image

And two with the funny dark ears and "Carob" color.
Image
Last edited by Zinnia on Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#2  Unread postby Dood » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:34 pm


I just see odd looking self chocolates :shrug:

There are other modifiers that lighten and darken rabbits which is why there is so much confusion about a particular rabbits colour :) and even within a litter no two are alike

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#3  Unread postby Zinnia » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:58 pm


Here's another, showing the light inner ear to go with light chin, underbelly, etc.
Image

Can a Self-looking rabbit hide the Tan gene? Because the dam's mom, (Cream) could easily be mistaken for a Blue Fox.
Image

__________ Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:58 pm __________

Image

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#4  Unread postby Dood » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:52 pm


Can a Self-looking rabbit hide the Tan gene?
No, Tan cannot hide in self, based rabbits, only in agouti.

Because the dam's mom, (Cream) could easily be mistaken for a Blue Fox.
I don't think so as she has obvious ring pattern and lacks the while line along the lower jaw

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#5  Unread postby PSFAngoras » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:56 am


It could be a possibility that one or the other is actually a steel (?super steel I think they call it?) that has both copies of the steel gene causing it to look self. I don't have much experience with the gene myself, but i hear it happen frequently with NZ that the genes are basically not shown for several gen, and then crop up again later. I had a self black doe that was a Harli/SF mutt that threw agouti with a self blue chin buck that was extensively bred and known not to carry steel, so it had to be the doe who was steel.
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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#6  Unread postby Zinnia » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:02 am


I am obsessing about this. And, the only real lead I have is that there are some serious Steels going on up the line in the Black Doe. She was the ONLY Self rabbit in a litter of kits that appeared mostly Steel tipped. The grand-sire is Silver tipped Steel... Would the Chestnut Agouti sire have been Gold-tipped (is that what they call it in Agouti colors?). All I know is that the litter she came from had evidence of Es.

So, to be a Super Steel, her dam would need to have Es (and show it because it's dominant, right?). :?

I'm going to solve this, I swear!

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:54 am __________

Dood wrote:
Can a Self-looking rabbit hide the Tan gene?
No, Tan cannot hide in self, based rabbits, only in agouti.

Because the dam's mom, (Cream) could easily be mistaken for a Blue Fox.
I don't think so as she has obvious ring pattern and lacks the while line along the lower jaw

Thank you for confirming this, Dood. So, in the case of a Super Steel (Self-looking), she might be able to hide Tan, but I guess I am looking at appearing to "hide" Agouti, more likely, in this case. Perhaps she is a Super Steel (Agouti, right?), which could explain a lot.

I am only just confused about what this could mean for her dam, the Cream.

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#7  Unread postby alforddm » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:06 am


You said there were copper chestnuts in her litter with her brother. Is that what is sometimes called orange (ie A- ee)? If that is the case then she can't be a super steel.

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#8  Unread postby Dood » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:30 am


Youve made an error -
Cream Aa Bb Cc dd Ee
should be - Cream Aa Bb Cc dd ee

She cannot be super steel (EsEs) because her mother is cream (ee) the most she could be is single steel (Es e)

Elderberry's sire cannot be steel because he is chestnut, if he carried steel he would look steel

Steel hides in self - "aa E_" and "aa Es_" look the exact same ("aa ee" is a tort)

But cannot hide in agouti based rabbits - "A_ E_ " looks chestnut while "A_ Es_" looks steel, "A_ EsEs" looks super steel and "A_ ee" is fawn

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:28 am __________

On a side note - pretty much EVERY colour is a showable in the angoras because it is so difficult to figure out the genotypes with all that wool and the breeds emphasis is on wool quality anyway

Conversely most other breeds accept less than 6 colours and several accept only ONE because it is so difficult to figure out genotypes and they want to get those few colours done perfectly and consistantly in the pelts

So Zinnia, please DONT stress about it :)

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#9  Unread postby Zinnia » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:41 am


Dood wrote:Youve made an error -
Cream Aa Bb Cc dd Ee
should be - Cream Aa Bb Cc dd ee

She cannot be super steel (EsEs) because her mother is cream (ee) the most she could be is single steel (Es e)

Elderberry's sire cannot be steel because he is chestnut, if he carried steel he would look steel

Steel hides in self - "aa E_" and "aa Es_" look the exact same ("aa ee" is a tort)

But cannot hide in agouti based rabbits - "A_ E_ " looks chestnut while "A_ Es_" looks steel, "A_ EsEs" looks super steel and "A_ ee" is fawn

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:28 am __________

On a side note - pretty much EVERY colour is a showable in the angoras because it is so difficult to figure out the genotypes with all that wool and the breeds emphasis is on wool quality anyway

Conversely most other breeds accept less than 6 colours and several accept only ONE because it is so difficult to figure out genotypes and they want to get those few colours done perfectly and consistantly in the pelts

So Zinnia, please DONT stress about it :)


Yes, it just occurred to me that a Cream could not be Es, because it is ee (oops). Well, no matter what, I've got an Agouti-looking baby and two "Self" parents. So, something's up. I'll TRY not to stress about it! :lol:
What would a Chestnut Steel look like? He was a different-looking Chestnut! I no longer have him, so I can't show pictures. But, he looked Copper, or Sandy, wide band (poor ring color, wrong belly color).

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:11 am __________

alforddm wrote:You said there were copper chestnuts in her litter with her brother. Is that what is sometimes called orange (ie A- ee)? If that is the case then she can't be a super steel.

Well, in French Angora, as I have understood it... The Copper-looking Chesnuts were just Chestnuts with high rufus. They had ring color, agouti markings and looked Copper instead of Chestnut.

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:41 am __________

There was a Blue kit that I thought could have been an Opal from the Chestnut/Cream first litter... the litter I mentioned that Elderberry came from. This rabbit appeared to have faint bands, slight agouti markings and definite gold-tips. The tips were unquestionably gold. This wasn't the only rabbit that had gold tips, but was the most obvious of the bunch. What a mystery. I had guessed it was a Blue Steel.

But, that would mean the sire would have to be Es (and show it).

Perhaps, as Dood stated, there are other modifiers that make the colors appear so different. I am beginning to think I won't ever really know what it is.

I will show more pictures of this kit as it gets older.

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#10  Unread postby alforddm » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:05 am


Could the sire not be a super steel? If she also had a doe that was super steel she might not realize they were actually super steels and self.

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#11  Unread postby Zinnia » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:37 am


alforddm wrote:Could the sire not be a super steel? If she also had a doe that was super steel she might not realize they were actually super steels and self.

I've mentioned a lot of sires. Do you mean the Chestnut sire to the dam who's kit looks agouti? Or do you mean the Chocolate sire to the kit that looks agouti?

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#12  Unread postby Zass » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:56 am


A rabbit doesn't have to be a super steel to be a masked or hidden agouti.
The "two copes are required" thing is a myth.
One copy of the gene can still pull off the trick. That is part of why steel can be so frustrating for breeders.

It's not playing by the same rules most people think it is.

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#13  Unread postby alforddm » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:03 pm


Zinnia wrote:
alforddm wrote:Could the sire not be a super steel? If she also had a doe that was super steel she might not realize they were actually super steels and self.

I've mentioned a lot of sires. Do you mean the Chestnut sire to the dam who's kit looks agouti? Or do you mean the Chocolate sire to the kit that looks agouti?


I just reread what I posted and I meant to say "might not realize they were actually super steels and not self"

I was referring to the chocolate sire of the kits in question.

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#14  Unread postby Zass » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:33 pm


Whatever steel the parent stock is, it cannot be a super steel(EsEs).
A super steel is unable to throw clean agouti kits. (White bellies, white inside the ears, facial agouti markings, etc)

Like Dood said, no non-extension color can hide steel. Look for self colored ancestors to be the likely hidden steel carriers. Unless a heavily tipped steel buck was accidentally labeled agouti in the past.
OR
Is it possible that a different buck was exposed to the doe?

__________ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:21 pm __________

This is one of my chocolate gold tipped steels, and a self chocolate colored kit side by side for comparison:

Image
And the belly
Image

You can see a faint eye circle, but the ears and belly are definitely not white

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Re: Pictures! Agouti or Tan-pattern kit from 2 Self parents?

Post Number:#15  Unread postby Zinnia » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:47 pm


Great pictures. I can see the subtle difference. My kit's belly and under chin are very light/pink right now. Very different than the other kits, who's bellies are Chocolate.

I will try to get some more photos. This kit looks very much like what my Chocolate Chestnut Agouti kits looked like last year, from a different doe.

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