Stuart - Chocolate?

Hello.... I am hoping you can tell me if 'Stuart' is actually what I was sold.... He was sold as a Chocolate Self but if you look at his pictures, you can see he has a blue hue to him.. In some light he looks really chocolate, and other times he looks blueish... He has alot in his background... mom is Chestnut, dad is orange.... Dads side - Grandma is red eye Himalayan, grandpa is broken(not sure what color)... Moms side - Grandma is Chestnut and Grandpa is Buff colored....
The little orange vm in the second pic is Stuarts cousin Benjamin....

So, he has a colorful bg.... I just want to know if his color is normal(ie good) or if he is a poor chocolate... He is a house pet and potential breeder and we love him regardless, I just want to know.






Also, here is his potential girl, Pippen.... A chocolate otter...(bg consists of choc self or choc otters and a few lilacs) If bred together... Who would be more dominate? Would my likely chances be chocs and choc otters? Or am I looking at oranges and possibly himis too?



Thanks So much for your help!!!

Can't comment on the colours, but just wanted to say they are all so pretty. I just love Pippen's posture and expression!

They are so cute!! That is a correct chocolate! You might be noticing that dove grey undercoat which is normal. Otter is dominant to self but you can still get selfs if the otter doe carries a self gene. The chance of oranges would be nil between these two because they are both self/ Red is an agouti that is non extension. If they both carried rew/himi you might get that but both doe and buck would need to be carrying it.

Great! We were really hoping for more Chocolates and Otters...

What about breeding a blue otter to a chocolate otter? I have read not to do that because they are both dilutes but I have also read it is fine but blues would be dominate since black/blue dominate the red/chocolate? Not sure if that is true....

And last question.... Another combo we are considering is choc otter to black otter....

Out of the three combos choc/choc otter - choc otter/blue otter or choc otter/blue otter... what is the best combo?

They are adorable!

Interbreeding the 4 otter colours is completely fine Blue Otter is the dilute of Black Otter, and Lilac Otter is the dilute of Chocolate otter. Black is dominant to chocolate, unless the black carries a chocolate gene.

at_ B_ C_ D_ E_ (black otter)
at_bb_C_D_E_ (Chocolate otter)
at_B_C_dd_E_ (Blue Otter)
at_bb_C_dd_E_ (Lilac Otter)

i saw that bun and thought... that looks like one of my polish. but then you mentioned his background and colours and I saw where you are from and it was like OH....not one of mine. It was just a bit freaky for a minute there. Looks like a good coloured chocolate.

So what would happen if Benjamin(orange VM) was bred to either my chocolate otter or blue otter? Would the otter 'trump' the orange? Would I get chocolate/blue VM? Or are those just plain no nos? I am really trying to figure out these color genetics but keep getting confused... Eventually I will get it....


You guys are SOOO helpful!!! And I really appreciate your help! And thanks so much for all the compliments on them!<br /><br />__________ Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:58 pm __________<br /><br />

That one is a bit of a wildcard since it really depends what the orange is hiding. Orange sort of trumps otter. Otter carries full extension which turns orange to chestnut and agouti which makes orange and chestnut covers otter so... If the orange is not carrying recessives and the otters are not carrying nonextension (highly unlikely they are unless you see orange, fawn, tort, etc.. on the pedigree) then you will get a litter of only chestnuts from either one. Some could be VM marked. If the orange is hiding tan you could get otters. Most likely black otter. If the orange is hiding self and the otters are hiding self you could get self colors. Again most likely black. Now we go back a bit and if the orange carries dilute crossed with the blue you could get any of the previous colors diluted provided the other recessives are carried. So opals with chestnuts, blue otters with black otters, blue selfs with black. If the orange carries chocolate combined with the chocolate otter you could get any of the previous colors in chocolate(provided the other recessives are carried). Cinnamon or whatever you want to call chocolate agouti, chocolate otter, or chocolate. VM is unpredictable and could show up half the time or not at all even if they carry the vienna gene.

I have no idea. But they're all soooooooooooo cuuuuuuuuuuuuuute!!!!! :razz:

LOL So really wild card is a perfect statement for him....

He is actually full cousin/brother to my chocolate... Same dad(orange) and their moms(chestnuts) were sisters... beyond that is Dads side - Grandma is red eye Himalayan, grandpa is broken(not sure what color)... Moms side - Grandma is Chestnut and Grandpa is Buff colored....

Chocolate Otter has Choc Self, Choc Otter and Lilacs in Pedigree....


Thanks Miss M!

Orange will be dominate over chocolate otter but since you orange carries chocolate you could get both.I breed dilutes too each other.the reason people say that is they are worried about white toenails.breeding too black doesnt correct white toenails.be vigilant about looking for white toenails on blues.

curlysue":39ujpuye said:

be vigilant about looking for white toenails on blues.

Click to expand...

And if you've got the VM gene in there, you need to REALLY check for white snips/spots/toes/nails on all self coloured animals.

Thanks so much for your help!! I really appreciate everyones help!!

If the chocolate and orange are related then the odds are higher that the chocolate carries non extension so red/orange *may* be possible. Its all luck of the draw lol

Fun! So Stuart and Pippens first litter should be a fun surprise! I can't wait to see what they have!

I would say its just a baby coat and the undercolor is showing through. It should get darker when it is older.