So what do you think...did I handle this correctly?

C'mon, Lauren, no one is suggesting that one not treat infected animals.

What I said was that there should be no need for preventative treatment... that is, routine treatment of non-infected animals. For animals to contract coccidiosis, it must first be present in their environment. When one is butchering rabbits and finding only healthy livers, why would one then turn around and medicate the herd?

To prevent overpopulation of Coccidiosis
one must sweep any Cling-ons from the cage floor
within twenty-four hours. It takes twenty-four hours
for the Ooocysts [eggs] to become infective.
Coccidiosis is often present but does not become a problem
unless they are able to overpopulate. Most rabbits have
a strong enough immune system to control a low population
without the aid of medications. Your job is to help
keep that population down to a controllable level.
As always, JMPO.
Dennis, C.V.R.

If I sold those rabbits I'd want to know and I'd make every effort to correct the problem.

I suspect most small time producers would. They know what it's like, or at least they know the potential is there; to have the short end of the stick handed to them.

In my dealings the context is definitive to the tone of communication.

Your letter wasn't an invitation to tea, it was straight up business.

Blunt? Perhaps if one chooses to read it from a social perspective it could be found devoid of the political niceties but so often when words are framed with sugary prose the over riding message gets lost, or diluted.

Your transcript seemed to the point. You indicated both your complaints and future intentions while providing viable options to maintain the business relationship.

It was acceptable; in my opinion.

I agree john_francis. It is about business and Ladysown IS the customer. She is also pointing out an issue that has dire health consequences for the animals involved. Prevention of cocci is way easier then trying to cure it after the fact. That is my point about treatment and prevention, once its there the herd goes downhill and becomes unthrifty despite treatment. This is one disease that needs to be cut off at the start not after its discovered in condemned livers.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Parasite/Parasites_main.htm

I think it was worded just fine.

If those were my animals that had cocci, I would want her to tell me straight up that there is something wrong and I need to correct the situation. It doesn't need to be sugar coated, after all these are animals lives we're talking about.

Because my fryers are going to be used as raw food for peoples pets, you can be darn sure I'm going to make sure they're healthy. Which means preventative measures. I worm my rabbits regularly, because I do let them outside in exi-pens. I also feed my brood stock feed medicated to prevent cocci twice a year. My cages not only get their trays dump but they get scrubbed down with disinfectant. And if I have any reason to believe their is something "off" with the fryers I will treat them, then wait the amount of time until whatever their treated with is completely out of their system before processing them. It's no skin of my neck. Anyone who has taken an animal husbandry course knows, prevention is easier then treating.

Hello there folks Just started reading this half of the discussion...my goodness.

There is some validity to constant worming...IF you live in the south where the worms and other parasites aren't killed off by the extreme cold. Horse people up here only worm in the summer when parasites are active. Horses are EXTREMELY susceptible to parasites.

Coccidia is everywhere. In the wild it's rampant in many areas. It IS species specific (with only 2 known crossovers that I'm aware of). they breed/are found in moist areas that are LEFT moist. so proper cleaning is crucial if you live in an area with an outbreak.

It's fairly easy to take a soil sample into an extension office to have it checked...or at least it used to be. I haven't done it in years.

Worming any animal is VERY hard on it's system. You're sending a toxin through your rabbit's system. With poultry, swine, beef, and any other meat producing animal there is a longish withdrawal time before slaughtering if the animal is wormed....because there is residual toxin in the bloodstream, liver, kidneys, and intestines.

I'm thinking that if I were this particular breeder, with the obvious signs of coccidiosis, I'd worm everyone, do a thorough cleaning of all cages, feeders, waterers, and then start again.

Just sayin'.

I think if one is running a closed system and breeding meat for themselves its one thing to not treat. If its eradicated in that rabbitry and they don't get on the ground then they most likely won't have worms or other parasites. The issue here is someone is selling live rabbits which they know are going for meat who either didn't know about cocci or didn't bother to find out out if it was present.When your "product" is leaving your barn in exchange for money then its a very big deal.Ladysown now is in a position where she probably has to retreat her own rabbits simply because this was reintroduced into her property .So I think she has a right to word her message in such a way as to show she means what she says. I see an analogy between this and "puppy mills" where pups are pumped out with no thought to their health status. In dogs we preventative treat for rabies and distemper for example. I see coccidiosis as the "distemper' of the rabbit world.


Yes we don't do any treating for anything after the ground freezes. After that it depends on who got pasture time or if there are new rabbits present. In the past we didn't use the medicated feed,but after mentioning to another breeder about the lack of condition in the rabbits in general despite being wormed, she asked if we had treated for cocci and mentioned that we should be doing that. Difference in the rabbits was like night and day.Fortunately we were not doing meat rabbits then just the mini rex.

On another note.... Was it ever discovered how that one rabbit broke its leg? If it happened at the petshop I am wondering if pet rabbit breeders shouldn't get together and boycott that place?

So I think she has a right to word her message in such a way as to show she means what she says.

Click to expand...

Ladysown has every right to word her message in such a way as to show she means what she says.

However, she asked for members' opinions and asked specifically what she could have said instead. I took considerable time to write a version that I felt might be more diplomatic without losing the message... and she thanked me for my input. What she does with it after that is up to her.

Bottom line is... don't ask for opinions in a forum if you don't want to hear them... and don't criticize other members for their sincere efforts to help when you know such help was requested.

I appreciated Maggie's help.

I've oft been told that I'm too blunt, and since I'd rather speak softly and still convey my message, I like to learn other ways of saying the same thing. When I got the impression that people thought I was being mean, that hurt my feelings (hey... being honest here) because deliberately being mean is something I never intend to be. People can say... say that differently, but unless I say what I say and then have others rephrase it...how do I learn to say it more diplomatically?

I know that I have every right to say what I want to however... there are ways of saying things that help get the message heard. AND that's what I want therefore I say wrote.. this is what I said, can I say it better.

I have learned that if things are said in a too blunt manner people are apt to get defensive and do not hear the word/intent and therefore do not ACT since they are too busy either having hurt feelings OR defending themselves. I want ACTION not defensive posturing (not being sure that's the right word) or hurt feelings. Knowing how to word things differently is helpful should I ever face this situation again.

"Right on!", Ladysown, as we used to say a few decades ago. :goodjob:

(But I never thought you were being mean and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.)

I'm really starting to dislike the pet store rabbit thing..just from the posts I see here about them. Not sure what i'd do if someone wanted to buy my rabbits for a store..probably say "GO AWAY" :lol:

buying from others...so far I've just bought animals for breeding purposes..and I've been pleased. I suppose it's like computers. EVERYONE has a "right" way to do stuff. And it's almost ALWAYS different than anyone else. And the guy that works on the computer after YOU fix it...says "what an idiot"...and you say the same about him

Always interesting to hear how someone raises their stock and deals with the public.

Lol, Ann, my hubby works on computers on the side, and I hear "what an idiot", an awful lot, lol. (then again, I hear it from the people he fixes computers for just as often, but not about him, lol)

I have been struggling with the whole pet sales thing myself, and am thinking I am no longer going to offer rabbits for sale, except in exceptional cases. Pet stores would NEVER get one of my rabbits. Things like broken legs really bug me.

I think it's interesting that you can say or write something in a million different ways, and it can be taken in any one of those ways.

When I first found out there were online forums dedicated to rabbits (earlier this year) I asked a question on HT, and got some answers back. It was one of the first times I posted. The question was about natural feeding, and I was advised to feed pellets until I moved to the country. I took it so personally, bawled all day, didn't go back to the site for three days, I was so hurt and upset. I told my hubby I couldn't have any friends, even the people nline were mean to me (one of the offenders was Maggie, lol).

I went to the site to show him the horrible, judgemental things people were saying, and I was shocked. None of the comments were mean or downputting at all. They were all very nice, polite comments suggesting that there were probably too many polutants and stuff and too little weeds growing in my area to make it worthwhile. Nothing that I had remembered.

So now I take everything with a grain of salt. If it seems "mean" I can come back later and read it, and my perspective is usually different. I also have the knowledge (after being on here and HT for four months) that you guys are very nice people and not mean at all.

My point was, even with the same person, same writing, perspectives can change according to how you feel (I was hormonal and pregnant, lol).

Shara, that was an excellent post!

I agree w/ Ann about the petshop thing too. I may be very off base but since reading this thread for the first time, I keep wondering why Ladysown wasn't told about the rabbits being returned from a petstore, before there was an issue. I would want to know something like that if I were buying live rabbits or meat either one.

Oh Ladysown, don't be hard on yourself. You did well. I can relate. I recently bought 8 rabbits from a breeder, because I wanted meat for my family right away and didn't want to wait until my rabbits had their own, etc. Out of the 8, one died before slaughter time, and all but 1 or 2 had spotted livers. I had never encountered this before. I knew of coccidiosis, but didn't know how to tell if a rabbit had it or not. After slaughtering them and seeing the spots, and after finding out what it was from, I have had to ponder whether or not to approach the breeder and tell him his rabbits may have it. I say "may", because I wonder if maybe I just hadn't kept my rabbits clean enough? Maybe it was my fault. I did have them quaranteened for a while, but then moved them into the rabbitry later on. I think I may have to treat my whole herd. How do I do that? Do you put the medication into their water, and for how long? I have does with litters. Will the kits be treated also via the does' milk? I have been raising rabbits for years, but had never encountered coccidiosis. Scarey for me.

What Shara says holds a lot of truth. Some people are more sensitive than others and some are more blunt than others. I am both. I stopped going to HT for ages because I seemed to be the ultimate thread killer. That hurt. lol. Now, eh.

As for treating for Cocci, the only time I have treated my entire herd was when everything got sick in December. I do treat incoming breeding stock as part of their quarantine 'treatment'. It gives me peace of mind. I've never (knock on wood) opened a rabbit and found Cocci.

i find that coccidia isn't that hard to treat... once you get rid of it and maintain good standards it stays gone. I love it when I open up rabbits and their livers are clean.

I used sul-met, others use a tri-sulpha drug, I gave it to each rabbit individually as opposed to putting it in the water as it tastes horrid and my rabbits wouldn't drink it. It's about a two week treatment. Some days on, some days off. I find that small rabbits need a shorter rotation than bigger rabbits. some rabbits will act a bit off so I'm careful in administering it.

This might help:
COCCIDIOSIS

There are two types of Coccidiosis Intestinal and Live Form. The disease is caused by a protozoan parasite which attacks the bile duct or the intestinal tract. There are ten different species of the genus Eimeria which may infect the intestine. Generally these are not of much concern, unless a case of enteritis makes an appearance. This can lead to enterotoxemia and or Mucoid enteropathy, although enterotoxemia has been reported in rabbits which are free of Coccidiosis. Liver Coccidiosis is a problem as it causes white spots on the liver which renders the rabbit uneatable.

SYMPTOMS

Include lack of appetite, rough coat, loss of weight, poor weight gain, potbelly, listlessness and diarrhea. All of which often lead to death.

TREATMENT

The best treatment is the use of sulfaquinoxyline in the drinking water as the only available water for 5 days on, 5 days off then 5 days on again.. [one teaspoon per gallon of water] Repeat the treatment in 30 days to get any hatchlings. DO NOT use the treated rabbit as a food source for at least 30 days after the last treatment.

PREVENTION

Brush the cling-ons from the cage floor within 24 hours. This will aid greatly in preventing the spread of Coccidiosis. Do not allow fecal contamination of the feed or water.
Ottersatin. ldtimer: [From my Website]

I wouldnt worry about it. After reviewing your letter, I dont think it was harsh either..You clearly run a business and have a reputation to maintain. Tough luck if they dont like it..It is what it is. I run a home renovation business. When it comes to my rep I could care less what suppliers think. its the customers that come first.

Liver coccidiosis does not "render the rabbit uneatable". It just means the liver is not fit for eating. Commercial processors dock the price paid for rabbits that have spotty livers... but they do not reject the rabbit.