So, I visited a local feed mill...(not-so-natural diet)

I keep trying the local mills...not to save money, but in sheer hopes of finding something better than the manna pro sho I usually feed, I keep thinking I can do better.

Not so lucky this time.

They were eager to try and sell me a rabbit kibble with an ingredient list that looks like this:

Grain product, Plant protein product, Processed grain by-product, Forage product, Roughage product, Animal fat preserved with BHA. :shock: Vitamin A supplement, and so on with supplements, minerals, and preservatives.

To my credit I didn't tell the guy working just what I thought of their "rabbit ration."
So I'll just tell everyone on here instead.

I don't even feed my CARNIVORES unspecified animal fats. I don't care if it came from a fox farm or horse ranch, I want to know what type of rendered animal my critters are eating! :evil:

Am I a rabbit feed snob, or is this what drives so many of the people on here to try their hand at natural feeding?
I mean...this stuff looks like poison to me! I imagine my buns taking one mouthful and keeling over...I dunno...maybe I'm overreacting. I'm sure lots and lots of people have healthy rabbits on this stuff... :?

(Opinionated comments welcome )

I'm wary of feeds that I'd have to mail order, because I'm utterly terrified of the inevitable situation where I'm OUT OF FEED and cannot pick up anything locally. (I simply have too many rabbits to make it practical.)
As it is, I sometimes have to drive 45 minutes to a neighboring city when my local TSC runs out of my brand.

I guess I'll stick to the manna pro for now.

Am I a rabbit feed snob or is this what drives so many of the people on here to try their hand at natural feeding?

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This is exactly the issue that pushed me over the edge into entirely natural feeding instead of just supplementing with greens (weeds) back around 2007. Here in my corner of Southern Ontario I had only two brands within easy reach: Purina and Shur-gain. The rabbits didn't like Shur-gain and so wasted a lot. They ate the Purina fine, but I asked the company for their ingredients list and it included animal tallow. I was shocked. I know Purina feeds in other areas may have a different ingredients list, but that is what they told me at that time and I found it unacceptable.

I quit buying it and transitioned the rabbits to a hay/greens/grain diet. Fortunately it was spring and the greens were abundant, but it wasn't so easy back then... there was not much information available and I took a lot of criticism on another forum for my decision. But I stayed with it, experimented a bit and gradually found out what worked for me. That last bag of pellets lasted forever. The rabbits lost interest very quickly when given natural foods as well.

Rabbits on a natural diet do grow more slowly and I was accused of "stunting" my rabbits... but they did get to full weight by about 16 weeks. Since pellets have only been on the market since the end of World War II, I was confident that there was no reason not to go to a natural diet. People had been raising rabbits that way for centuries before the advent of pellets.

I used to feed Purina, and I don't remember seeing animal-based ingredients, so you're right, it must be a regional thing.

But definitely, while rabbits have been known to take in animal proteins (a doe eating her dead kits, etc.), it isn't supposed to be a regular part of the diet. There are quite a few on here who have quit pellets because of animal-based ingredients.

It is amazing that we can have such short memories on how things were always done before! I feel pretty good about the Modesto Mills pellets that we're feeding, but even it is essentially convenience food for rabbits! We are trying to get away from "convenience" foods for ourselves, and we make our dogs food, but here we are feeding to our buns - who WE plan to eat!

The feed from this mill sounds like utter garbage to me. I hate that they're feeding animal by-products to herbivores, just as much as when people sell chickens/eggs as having been on a "vegetarian" diet! Especially if it is an actual company, as it really makes their basic knowledge of the animals suspect!

Zass, if you're a rabbit feed snob, then I must be much worse, as we really insist on the organic feed for our buns. Even without the animal fat, any time a vitamin is listed instead of the food ingredients it almost always means it is a synthetic vitamin, which usually means that they are putting in isolated vitamins instead of full vitamin complex's, which I personally don't care for.

Again, I think it goes to how quickly a society of people can forget their roots and just live in acceptance of convenience. But I think it also speaks to people losing touch with knowledge, to the point where we just trust big business, government agencies, doctors, etc. to know everything and do the right thing, even though it gets proven time and time again that THEY either don't know what they should, OR for the sake of costs choose to not follow it, and lie/hide the truth at every opportunity.

Ahem, there's a food snob for you lol.

Heh, if I lived where you do comet, I would be too! I haven't been able to locate an organic feed that I wouldn't have to mail order yet.

I don't mind a hour + drive, but I cannot risk their lives on a shipping delay.

For example, I finally received the cages I ordered from Klubbertanz in February

Now I have to go look at Nutrena rabbit pellets that I'm currently feeding. I can't remember actually looking at the label. Heck, I read the labels for all other animals/people so why the heck wouldn't I check it for my rabbits? I don't know, and am a bit embarrassed now!

Zass":fiahwqfh said:

Heh, if I lived where you do comet, I would be too! I haven't been able to locate an organic feed that I wouldn't have to mail order yet.

I don't mind a hour + drive, but I cannot risk their lives on a shipping delay.

For example, I finally received the cages I ordered from Klubbertanz in February

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Have you contacted Modesto Mills? I know that if I bought just one bag, the price would be down at about $21, and with shipping puts it very close to retail price up here. I know that if you can use a pallet they give an even better price and shipping costs get better too. If you use enough, or can sell some of it locally, you might be pleasantly surprised. After that it's just lead times and managing inventory levels...

I'm really surprised about Klubertanz - we had our cages shipped the week after we ordered them. Of course, that was for only 5 cages, and I called my order in and told them I had rabbits reserved, so could only buy from them if they could ship that quickly. I think I got lucky - but they did ship exactly when they told me they would. Running a retail business with 40+ lines of handmade goodies has taught me to always ask for lead and shipping times.

I already pay almost 22/ 50lb bag for my feed, so that cost is nothing.

I couldn't store a whole pallet! I sometimes need one or two 50lb bags/week.

I'm afraid that east coast shipping prices might be a bit higher than west coast shipping prices for that brand. I'll have to get in contact with them and find out.

Well, it's worth looking into anyway - I was really surprised at how low they would sell one bag to me, I have no idea how many bags are on a pallet. If you look at a 60 day supply - that sounds like it would be maybe 12-16 bags? My understanding is that 60 days is still in the "fresh" range - and perhaps you can sell some bags to other rabbit people locally who are in the same bind as you for organic feed, and maybe earn a couple bucks a bag to help offset feed costs? Just what you need, I know, another enterprise to run!

They seem to be a friendly bunch down there - and they might be so thrilled that you want their feed that they would work with you to make it feasible!

MaggieJ":voydas9z said:

Rabbits on a natural diet do grow more slowly and I was accused of "stunting" my rabbits...

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Good grief :groooan: I suppose you're stunting your Great Dane puppy if you feed him large breed puppy food since he won't grow as fast as those fed the high protein small breed formulation.

In fact "power growing" future breeding stock is a big "no no" in all animal husbandry if you want your females to last in the long run, have large litter sizes and good milk production in your mammals.

Since pellets have only been on the market since the end of World War II, I was confident that there was no reason not to go to a natural diet. People had been raising rabbits that way for centuries before the advent of pellets.

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EXACTLY !!! And the only rabbits available were ones that thrived on forage. With the creation of pellets breeders started selecting for rabbits that did well on this feed and the traits for forage were lost. Breeders who use Natural feeding are just trying to regain those traits and who knows maybe after 50 years their bloodlines will be getting to 5 pounds in 8 weeks on hay and grains alone

My thinking exactly, Dood... but you should have heard some of the comments. :shock:

I've actually been working for a couple years on the research for a book about feeding rabbits naturally. I've got 50 detailed plant profiles (illustrated) for building a permaculture style food forest, with a range of plants from zone 3-10, and a few that can stretch into 2 and 11. I realized that the book format wasn't really going to work and dumped my notes into a Google Doc, and I'm narrating it into a set of videos. There are hundreds of citations and references to a huge array of rabbit feeding trials. I passed an early (very rough, very unfinished) copy on to someone on the board but they haven't had a chance to read it yet.

I'm not really sure there's going to be enough interest for me to be able to do a full publishing run, but I'm going to try getting it set up nicely, possibly do a multiple DVD set. The entire thing that got me started on the research in the first place was 1) I am cheap and feed prices keep going up and 2) feed quality keeps going down. I was HORRIFIED to see rendered fat on the feed list. I was also horrified to find out that Purina Horse pellets were found to have been grown using persistent herbicides, which can make the manure toxic. Part of the point for me having rabbits is to have quality manure for my garden! If they put it in the horse feed, and it took months to track down what the problem was, what are the odds that if it ends up in the rabbit feed we'll ever get a strait answer from anyone?

So, being a control freak and a hardcore academic research nerd, I started digging to find out what else could be done.

So I've been thinking, what about deconstructing these commercial pellet ingredients? All summer I fed a pellet-less diet. I foraged, fed alfalfa pellets, hay and a grain mix. I worried most about vitamins and minerals, but during the forage season most of them were covered in the fresh stuff as well as coming from the grain and mineral block. It was wonderful and liberating to leave the garbage pellets behind and to be in control of what went into my rabbits. This fall though I reluctantly returned to pellets right after two of my natural fed does kindled 10 each and I realized I was getting overwhelmed with the needs of my growing herd approaching winter. Plus here in Alaska the winter is so long and I didn't dry anything and don't have space for fodder. I really do hate not having any other choice but to feed a commercial food so full of junk. But minus the forage, why can't I still feed what basically seems like a deconstructed pellet, only gladly leaving out the garbage soy and grain by-products, etc. I'd still feed the alfalfa, the hay, the whole grains. Mostly I'd still worry about vitamins and minerals. Is there nothing to bridge the gap here though? I just read up about a product called Bunny Bloom. If it was only used to meet the vitamin and mineral needs, wouldn't that be a start to deconstructing the pellet? Of course next spring I'd gladly add the forage back to the mix and after experimenting with wild forages around my property all year, I also plan on growing other beneficial rabbit greens in the garden too. Thoughts?

I'd love to really get into deconstructing a few major pellet brands.

What are the signs of vitamin and mineral deficiency in rabbits? Mine don˙t get pellets at all and I can`t say that is anytging wrong with them - nice fur, a lot of babies, a lot of milk, proper weight.. They get a variety of fresh stuff in the winter, and beside of hay I also feed a lot of cooked mashed potato mixed with grains. They grow excellent on this and at butcher time there is no fat on them, so this way I really don˙t need pellets and the best part, swine-potato is a lot cheaper than a bag of "don´t-know-whats-in-it"

Pelleted feed is "always" suspect when purchased. The reasoning is simple.
The mill has "one-goal"...to make a product that is saleable at the highest
profit for the lowest investment. That's called business. LOL.

Gone are the days of old where their priority was first and foremost the
"health" of the animals targeted on the label. Years and years ago,
animal fat was an excellent way to boost the protein content. Yet, this
practice led to many problems in overall health. Consequently they
discontinued this practice. Nowadays they use some form of soybean
product to boost the protein. Try to buy a soybean that's not GMO.

I feed well over 40 bags of feed per month.... Sometimes it's closer to
70 bags. It depends on the cycle the rabbitry's in at the time. I feed a
Nutrena brand that's 17%, with reasonable products on the list. I'm
content with the quality insofar as it's not caused me any difficulties....
yet. Its one redeeming feature is that it's got probiotics incorporated
in the feed mix.

I'm continually searching for a cheaper feed that will provide for the
herd the necessary ingredients promoting good growth and good health.
A small price reduction surprisingly saves me hundreds of dollars on an
annual basis. Anything to save a few pennies here, or a few pennies there,
has a dramatic effect on the checkbook.

Zass,

I been using Kalmbach Feeds for about 8 months now. I switched from Manna Pro Grow. I'm still feeding an 18 percent and all the rabbits have done well with the switch. It's about $3 a bag cheaper and is made in Upper Sandusky, OH.

Big Tom":1wv7lrnj said:

Zass,

I been using Kalmbach Feeds for about 8 months now. I switched from Manna Pro Grow. I'm still feeding an 18 percent and all the rabbits have done well with the switch. It's about $3 a bag cheaper and is made in Upper Sandusky, OH.

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Big Tom,
I started with manna pro feeds and stuck with them for about two years.
I had all kinds of problems. I tried feeding manna pro sho, pro and gro during those two years. Mostly sho since that is what they did the best on.

There would be mold, or cleaner corn in the feeds. My kits would get sick and sometimes die, even when I couldn't visually find anything wrong.

I feed purina now, 16%. Since I switched over a year ago I haven't lost a single kit to enteritis on it. (Except the ones lost to the doe with the abscessed teats, I don't blame the feed, since I know she weaned them far too early.)

The purina feed is OK I guess. The rabbits have too much body fat if fed only the purina, and I don't really like the ingredient list, but at least it's very consistent, and weanlings NEED consistency.

My harlequins take to natural and forage based feeds better than the meat mutts ever did, so we actually fed a LOT of forages this year. Seeking sources of non-gmo grains still...

Big Tom":1sgogu99 said:

Zass,

I been using Kalmbach Feeds for about 8 months now. I switched from Manna Pro Grow. I'm still feeding an 18 percent and all the rabbits have done well with the switch. It's about $3 a bag cheaper and is made in Upper Sandusky, OH.

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ohhh! where do you buy from?

Kalmbach feeds has a sort of unusual policy...
http://www.kalmbachfeeds.com/faq/1/freq ... questions/

From their webpage:

Can I get an ingredient list for your products?

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Unfortunately, no, for confidentiality reasons, we cannot give out our ingredient lists.

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