Questions about feeding natural

First I want to thank Anntann, MaggieJ and Brody for all the wonderful suggestions they've given me on my Coloney thread!!!

Now, on to my questions. Since I have plenty of time to plan this endevor I decided to look into growing as many of my grains as possible. I can get heirloom seeds right here in Arkansas for several of the things that I'd like to grow as food for all of my critters. I've used the link that Anntann posted in this forum about "Site for protien calculations" to look up a number of things I'd like to grow.

Peas are easily grown. I can let them grow along the outter run area and the buns will get whatever happens to grow into the pen and the rest can be harvested and dried for later feeding.

Amaranth has a fairly high protien level. The Golden Giant has a higher protien level (13.2% - 17.6%) than the other one they have available so that's the one I'll go with.

I've heard sunflower seeds are easy to grow as well, and that was in my original plan to do. So that stays. The site Anntann linked to shows Sunflower Seeds @ 26.3%. Would that be "regular" sunflower seeds or BOSS?

Just those three things at 1 part each is 21.9% protien. I realize that's a bit high for rabbits so ... my question is this. When adding in "veggie scraps", hay, grass, etc. would this bring down that protien level to an acceptable amount? Or would I be better off adding something that has a lower protien content to lower the overall protien? The lowest protien content item is the amaranth seeds, so I suppose I could add more of that to bring it down if necesary.

I'm thinking about going ahead and ordering the seeds and having them here the next time we come in but I'm afraid at that point it will be too late to plant them. I'd like to get a general idea of how much I'm going to have to plant to get the desired results.

i.e. at a ratio of 1-1-1 (Amaranth, Peas, Sunflower Seeds) it would give me a 22% feed. To feed (and I know this is a rabbit forum but I haven't yet found out how many "pounds" of feed it takes to feed a rabbit each day) one chicken at .25 lbs per day for one month would require 10 lb of each for one month.

I have a feeling that the sunflower protien content is lower for "regular" sunflower seeds so if it is, I can down the ratio of Amaranth to bring the protien level back up. I also need to keep in mind that I plan on planting clover or rye in their run areas (which has a pretty high protien content as well)

Do you think this would be a doable plan?

Here is the recipe from the late Orren Reynolds (as described in the Storey book by Bennett), along with protein calculations:


(I think the formatting got messed up, but it should be readable.)

Great questions, Cnichols!

I want to take a little time to mull over your ideas before answering. I'll be back!

I'm going to chime in with something we often forget when working out feed charts...vitamins and minerals. A variety of grains with hay SHOULD provide what they need...but if there is any doubt, a mineral supplement (often you can get a salt block with minerals) is a good thing. so....don't just pay attention to the protein percent, but to an overall balance in the diet.

Anntann":t981nyd7 said:

I'm going to chime in with something we often forget when working out feed charts...vitamins and minerals. A variety of grains with hay SHOULD provide what they need...but if there is any doubt, a mineral supplement (often you can get a salt block with minerals) is a good thing. so....don't just pay attention to the protein percent, but to an overall balance in the diet.

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Quite true. It's extremely important to make sure that the rabbits have salt. Unlike pellets, natural feeding provides NO salt whatsoever. I had a rabbit get quite dehydrated one time due to no salt. I buy 4-lb salt/mineral blocks (MUCH less expensive than those itty-bitty rabbit disks) from my local feed store and put one in each cage.

Yep, already took that into consideration and am going to buy a large block that I can place in their area. Probably split it in two and put one next to each feed area, or buy two blocks.

I'm going to have to do the same with the goats so it was something I was already aware of, just didn't think to mention it but thanks for pointing it out! That way when I come back in the futre to read this thread it'll be there as a reminder!

trinityoaks":15hestdu said:

Quite true. It's extremely important to make sure that the rabbits have salt. Unlike pellets, natural feeding provides NO salt whatsoever. I had a rabbit get quite dehydrated one time due to no salt. I buy 4-lb salt/mineral blocks (MUCH less expensive than those itty-bitty rabbit disks) from my local feed store and put one in each cage.

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Trinity-

Which block did you buy? I saw a pink one for billy goats (berry flavored) that was maybe 2# then they had huge 10# blocks that were white (just salt?) & also a huge brown one (minerals + salt?). Also, how do you offer it? Do you put it in a bowl? I bought the small rabbit disks and I hung them with wire but they collect moisture like crazy & I noticed this morning they were dripping onto my cage wire. I am afraid I will have rust very soon.

Thanks for any info!
Cindy with the D*gs & Buns in FL

mytdogs":1pboa44q said:

Which block did you buy?

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I get the 4lb light brown salt/mineral blocks from the feed store in the goat section (not the flavored ones). I had originally planned on breaking it into chunks, but first used it with the dehydrated rabbit I mentioned earlier in the thread. I just put the whole thing into his cage, and after a few days I decided that was a better option than the small chunks. It's also the perfect size for kits to use as a step-up to get back into the nest box when they first start exploring.

We don't have to worry about moisture here, but if I lived where it was a concern, I would set it on something, maybe a piece of cardboard, to keep it off the wire floor of the cage. The rabbits, even my big Cals, don't seem to move them around much.

Keep in mind that these blocks DO NOT have any calcium at all. I recently lost an entire litter of kits (and almost lost the doe) due to calcium deficiency. Bucks and dry does may not need it, but the nursing does sure do!

I'm glad this got bumped up again. I wanted to address the protein level of sunflower seeds. BOSS is talked about because it's readily available as bird seed or feed additives. The BOSS is the stuff they grow for oil (okay, THAT was pretty obvious, Ann). so if you're wanting to cut down on fat for the rabbit, use the grey striped instead (which is the common type of sunflower grown by us normal folk)

lifted from a paper on feeding and attracting birds:

The primary difference between oil and striped sunflower is the fat(oil) content. Oil sunflower has 1-2 % more protein, and about 5-10% (depending on the type and cultivar) more oil. Basically they are they are all the same otherwise. Average 19-22% protein; 35-49 % fat; 4% fiber; 0.11% calcium; 0.33% phosphorus, small amounts of vitamins and minerals.

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SO! There ya go.

I've been looking at the protein levels of various grasses and weeds, and IN A COLONY SETTING where you free feed, the buns will regulate their own intake. Like chickens...when the body says 'calcium" they eat calcium (chickens go to the eggshells or oystershells...buns would head toward calcium laden greens); when the body says "protein" they head toward the higher protein seeds or greens or alfalfa.

research has shown that animals listen to the body. (and I suspect because the rabbit and chicken are grazers, and so small, it's an immediate reaction to the body saying "i need <whatever>" ) We, as humans, have gotten away from that..but have you ever had a craving for something you don't normally crave? Like when a meat eater (like my Michael) suddenly craves salads..I know it's time to up the vitamins in his diet..specially the Bs. Or I'll get this overwhelming "GOTTA HAVE MEAT!"...and I'll look at what I've eaten in the last day or two and find only a tiny tiny amount of protein in my diet...so I go eat almonds, or a steak <br /><br />__________ Tue May 25, 2010 6:41 am __________<br /><br />ohoh!! Almost forgot. Minerals and salt. If you happen to live near the ocean, or know someone does and will ship to you, a few strips of dried seaweed in the cage or coop will provide a LOT of minerals and salts.

For those of us land locked folks, the mineral blocks (usually red or brown in the store..white is plain salt) are the alternative. I'm fond of the deer licks, myself.

While we're on this question of mineral blocks... are there any that are positively dangerous to rabbits? I saw blue, reddish brown and white at the feed store different times... and the people who work there are no help whatsoever.

MaggieJ":3n4dll2p said:

While we're on this question of mineral blocks... are there any that are positively dangerous to rabbits?

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I couldn't tell you for sure, but I tend to stay away from the flavored blocks. I look for what's in the goat section, figuring if it's safe for goats, it's probably safe for rabbits, as well.

I know what you mean about feed store people being no help. I've found I know more about rabbits than they do, and you know how little *I* know. I don't even bother asking them anything beyong "where can I find. . .".

the reddish ones tend to be a mineral supplement for cattle in with salt. Checking the label for anything that might set off alarm bells. Deer licks SHOULD be safe. Although since most of them are flavored with apple (sugar) the rabbits might well eat a LOT of it. (and that, of course, would be bad)

The rabbit wheels are just the normal mineral block...in rabbit wheel size. (at least that's what I saw after reading the content labels. )
hhmmm...should be able to find some content thingies online. let me go look a moment

if you go to http://www.cargill.com/salt/product...s-choice/cc-natural-livestock-block/index.jsp you can look at all their products, and pull up the PDF of "safety data" for each product which has the content. (don't be afraid of all the warnings and testing data....it's the typical warning we get here in the US (dunno about the rest of the world) about salt. )

The one I have here - that I've been afraid to give to the rabbits - is called a trace mineralized stock salt block and contains the following:
Salt (NaCl) 96.5%
Zinc 4000 mg/kg (milligrams per kilogram)
Iron 1600 mg/kg
Manganese 1200 mg/kg
Copper 330 mg/kg
Iodine 70 mg/kg
Cobalt 40 mg/kg

There is a warning about sheep being sensitive to copper deficiency and toxicity and advising consulting a local vet to determine its suitability. I don't think I need to be concerned about that, though, do I?

MaggieJ wrote:
The one I have here - that I've been afraid to give to the rabbits - is called a trace mineralized stock salt block and contains the following:
Salt (NaCl) 96.5%
Zinc 4000 mg/kg (milligrams per kilogram)
Iron 1600 mg/kg
Manganese 1200 mg/kg
Copper 330 mg/kg
Iodine 70 mg/kg
Cobalt 40 mg/kg

There is a warning about sheep being sensitive to copper deficiency and toxicity and advising consulting a local vet to determine its suitability. I don't think I need to be concerned about that, though, do I?

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I was wondering that too Maggie. I think sheep are INTOLERANT of too much Copper so goat licks can be a problem for them. I know goats can eat sheep feed but sheep should not eat goat feed.

Do we know where rabbits fall on the copper issue? I saw an interesting (powdered) supplement for goats but I was afraid to risk the copper.

On the subject of calcium...where do the buns get calcium (assuming no pellets)? I know alfalfa has some but what else?

I read where you can leave a dried beef bone (think marrow bone without the marrow) for them to gnaw on- maybe this will help??

Are there NRC values for Rabbits listed somewhere?

Thanks!
MyT

Many, many plants contain rather large amounts of calcium. Dandelions are a good example. If your rabbits are getting alfalfa hay and greens, they are getting plenty of calcium.

I was just at our farm store, and looked at their "agrimaster 8" salt block. It actually has calcium added to it specifically for cattle. who'd a thunk it?<br /><br />__________ Tue May 25, 2010 2:54 pm __________<br /><br />http://hillagric.ernet.in/edu/covas/vahe/COVAS ALUMNI PALAMPUR/mineral for rabbits.html article is pretty interesting...talks about all the minerals necessary for good health specifically to rabbits.