question about playing nicely with others

Since I am new to rabbits (started with 3 in April) and to internet forums I keep having questions. I find lots of helpful information and some that seems confusing or contradictory. As fall keeps me more indoors, I've had time to read through some threads instead of just looking for specific answers. So in a thread called 6 of one and half dozen of the other in the meat rabbits section the topic of what age to start breeding came up. We had just picked out 2 does born late July to keep through the winter and breed in early spring--what we'd thought would be the right age. But folks I respect on here wrote about starting does at 5 or 6 months instead of 8 or 9. I posted a question in that thread, even though it was mostly about feed because that was where I saw the info that raised the question. So I still wonder whether we'd be better to choose replacement does from the litter born Oct 3 who would be 5 or 6 months or to keep the older ones.
And I also wonder where is the appropriate place to ask a question that arises from a post or posts I read--on that thread or in another section (breeding in this case?). I would rather not annoy anyone and want to learn to play by the rules--looking forward to a time when I may be able to answer questions helpfully.
Thanks in advance to anyone with patience to answer.

It really depends on purpose I think. Show breeders tend to wait longer, they want the prime finish for that rabbit to shine and as long a show career as possible. Breeding for solely meat, the quicker the growth and breeding the better. Want good condition as well, but its not exactly the same kind of condition. A rabbit bred for meat production probably wouldn't stack up against a show rabbit of the same breed (differences on coat, type, size, etc would be off). I'm sure there's others here that do duel purpose more, I've just started eating my own culls out of need/health reasons.

Wanting to show a senior is pretty much the only reason to wait to breed. It doesn't seem to harm the doe to breed sooner and it's actually easier to get them pregnant. Mature, nonbreeding does should be fed carefully because they can pack fat in to the abdomen that isn't noticeable but can cause problems with pregnancy. Some breeds will not breed well before 8 months. Mainly giant breeds but some lines of other breeds. Rabbits bred to show instead of meat may be slow to mature and have smaller litters.

So I still wonder whether we'd be better to choose replacement does from the litter born Oct 3 who would be 5 or 6 months or to keep the older ones.

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Why not both? Lack of space? It's good to keep the older does until you get the younger does going. They may not produce litters for awhile. First time does sometimes don't want to breed the first few attempts and if you wait to see if they took you lose a month of possible offspring. They also frequently lose their first litter so again if you are waiting to see if you get a successful litter there's a month gone and you'll have to wait another month for another chance at a litter. Having the proven breeders bred at the same time as the first timers is also useful because you can foster the kits if a first time doe doesn't care for them properly. Quite often people breed back to their starting stock to recover a trait so long term they are potentially useful unless they have something you want to absolute eliminate from your herd.

I used to think it was better to wait closer to 8 months to breed my juniors based on what I'd read online.
But....when I accidentally left a male female junior pair together too long and had a doe get pregnant at 20 weeks...That doe later became my most productive animal to date. (Pancake) She did however, have a weak immune system. She wasn't a big doe, and when her immune system finally gave in to something I couldn't treat... She was carrying 14 embryos. I think those oversized litters were just more than her 8.5 lb body could handle. Maybe breeding her later would have resulted in smaller litters that would have stressed her less? One rabbit isn't enough of a sample to determine anything.
But, I still choose not to breed quite as early as 4 months.

Older does have been a real headache to get bred for me.

Being fatty can be dangerous for brood does, and some of the feed can be seriously fatty. I feel if you wait too long and don't feed very very carefully, one would be increasing their risk of losing both the doe and the litter.

I also think...what you feed and your growth rates would be a factor contributing to when you can breed. And the adult weight of your animals, and when they reach that senior weight is important. I heard someone on here mention it took forever for their show line NZW to reach full senior weight. Lines that take longer to mature are going to need bred later.

In contrast, I only raise mix breed animals for fur and meat. (and to make me happy, because I like to cuddle and handle my bunnies.) Something like designer mutts.

My best SF buck was 9.2 lbs at 5 months. (out of meat/show and show lines) He's the father of all my current meat mutt does. The lines all have smaller Lilac genes too, but it hasn't reduced growth rates for me, just the adult weight. I'm seeing 5 lbs at 9 weeks, and a finished size of 8 or 8-5 lbs by 5 months.

Looking at these chunky 8+ lb does... Honestly, I'm afraid to wait much longer to breed them. I KNOW my pellets are fatty, and I know they are full grown. I'll admit, I hurried up to get them bred, because I truly believe that waiting until spring would be worse for them than breeding at 5 and a half months old.

I've never had a first timer lose her litter. Actually, I've never had a doe with a nestbox in loose her litter. :shrug: I don't breed high strung animals, but I was also lucky to find a strong mothering line, and have the sense to breed it in, and keep culling for it.

Thanks, Zass. We fed hay, a bit of grain and lots of fresh cut forage through early fall. Now there's only a bit of stuff from garden trimmings and we've just begun feeding wheat fodder. I don't know what to expect for adult weight since the buck was a rather small SF and the doe a large NZW--and until these we just ate them all. Our grow rate is slower than yours and I think winter slows it more? Feeling puzzled about how to feed enough for good health and growth and not get them fat. Everyone seems to agree that fat is a problem for breeding. I've learned so much and still have more questions than when we started--feel like a small child following you all around and asking "Why?" and What about . . .?" endlessly.

Rainey":2exg8xbh said:

And I also wonder where is the appropriate place to ask a question that arises from a post or posts I read--on that thread or in another section (breeding in this case?). I would rather not annoy anyone and want to learn to play by the rules--looking forward to a time when I may be able to answer questions helpfully.
Thanks in advance to anyone with patience to answer.

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Thank you, Rainey, for taking the time to consider the forum's etiquette. When a question arises from the original topic of a thread, it is perfectly fine to ask it in the same thread. If it is more like a spin-off question, it is usually more productive to start a new thread. You are more likely to receive replies that specifically address the new topic and you will also avoid derailing the original thread. There are no hard and fast rules, but I have been reading many of your posts and you show sensitivity and respect for other members, so I am sure you will do just fine.

Rainey":1ixr2nmb said:

Thanks, Zass. We fed hay, a bit of grain and lots of fresh cut forage through early fall. Now there's only a bit of stuff from garden trimmings and we've just begun feeding wheat fodder. I don't know what to expect for adult weight since the buck was a rather small SF and the doe a large NZW--and until these we just ate them all. Our grow rate is slower than yours and I think winter slows it more? Feeling puzzled about how to feed enough for good health and growth and not get them fat. Everyone seems to agree that fat is a problem for breeding. I've learned so much and still have more questions than when we started--feel like a small child following you all around and asking "Why?" and What about . . .?" endlessly.

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I'm really interested in a more natural diet for my animals. I'd be willing to sacrifice growth rates...but...I wonder if it's really necessary? I mean, just what about the pellets makes the fryers grow faster?

Determining the correct amount of feed can be a tricky, because individual rabbits have different feed requirements. Some even tolerate certain feeds better than others, and it doesn't seem to be predictable based on breed.
Well, that and and the composition of pellets and people's feeding routines are all somewhat different too.

We're pretty much all just observing our animals and trying to do the best we can. That, and culling our herd towards the best conversion of whatever feed we've decided on.

Success of first litters seems to vary greatly by breed and some by line. Trying to get litters out of my new show quality netherland does made me want to bang my head against the wall. I'm sure I will be back to that level of frustration when the litter this fall is ready to breed next spring. Sometimes I had issues with mini rex as well. Large meat breeds did a lot better. The champagnes rarely failed but they also only had about 5. My cremes had NZ in them and did great with litters around 8, sometimes 10. The american sables were so so. The does tended toward bigger first time litters than they could care for but often raised a partial litter. Colony is both easier and trickier. A solid floor means there is much less risk of lost kits if the doe doesn't use a box but there is much more risk that she won't use the box because she has tons of other options. Sometimes they decide a damp corner where some caged rabbits have been spraying urine in to the colony is a good place. :slap:

I breed less by age than by size and attitude.

About 60-70% of adult weight is what you are looking for.

And the end of the "baby" rabbit attitude and the "adult" rabbit attitude. Once that attitude changes, I breed, otherwise they can get difficult.

ladysown":25dern2r said:

I breed less by age than by size and attitude.

About 60-70% of adult weight is what you are looking for.

And the end of the "baby" rabbit attitude and the "adult" rabbit attitude. Once that attitude changes, I breed, otherwise they can get difficult.

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Thanks, that will help once I've been at this long enough to have a better idea of adult weight for the cross we have. And I don't understand the attitude issue. Is this something that happens just when the rabbit reaches sexual maturity and hasn't yet been bred? Should we expect to see more attitude from the adults over the winter when we're not breeding them? What should we be watching for and how do we deal with it?

It sounds like we feed similar diets, Rainey. We even have covered garden beds right now growing greens for us and the buns. We have only been doing this for a few years, but this is what I have found:

we don't find a lot of fat on our processed kits. On the other hand, our grow out rates aren't at as fast as some. I am finding with my latest litter that the grow out rates may have a lot more to do with genetics than food, though. This latest litter is a NZ/Lionhead cross and is growing faster than my last NZ litter (different moms). Same food, same treatment, much faster growing.

As far as breeding, since we are raising for meat and not show, we breed early. My does get bred by the time they hit six months. My first timers have had litters ranging from 8 to 11 kits. I have lost one kit to being dragged out of the box, but that's it. They get greens and grains from the time their eyes open, and I have lost none to weaning issues.

There are so many ways to run a successful rabbitry. It all depends on how you want to run it. With us, we try to run it inexpensively, using a lot of what we grow anyway, cutting down on pellet costs. It may slow down our growth rates a bit, but we are satisfied with what we get for the money.

And I don't understand the attitude issue. Is this something that happens just when the rabbit reaches sexual maturity and hasn't yet been bred? Should we expect to see more attitude from the adults over the winter when we're not breeding them? What should we be watching for and how do we deal with it?

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One mature behavior that jumps out at me is when doelings no longer tolerate sharing a cage with litter mates. Chin rubbing is another mature behavior that I see. I can sometimes tell a doe hasn't been bred because my does who want to mate will rub a lot more.

My unbred adults aren't likely to get grumpy with me overwinter. I don't allow aggression, nipping or even growing at me, so I can't use those indicators in my herd. Does or doelings who act like that here get culled. It seems like if they don't act that way before they get bred, they aren't likely too afterwards.

But you have to understand, I'm intentionally removing aggressive and what I see as negative hormonal behaviors from my herd. I'm raising at least two or three does for every one I want to keep, because I won't know if they are "good" until they mature. I can't imagine that would be very practical for a larger scale raiser, or a show breeder.

I had some really nice lines and some higher strung lines. My nicest rabbits have all been my best mothers and great fosters, who raise larger litters for me and nurse longer. They build good nests, pull plenty of hair and have never once lost a litter if there was a nestbox in place. Good mothering doesn't seem to be connected to the aggressive "hormones."

The higher strung rabbits were more likely to attack the buck, more likely to trample and scratch their kits when they jumped in the nestbox in fits of "protectiveness." They tended to wean earlier, and never had or raised quite as many babies. That, and they were just generally less fun to be around. (Yeah, I'm mostly taking about the silver foxes.) They still didn't lose litters, but I'm pretty sure had I continued with them long enough, I would have eventually had to deal with it. I always got the impression that they were...kinda stupid...

There was a grumpy black new zealand I had who was an awesome mother despite her occasional attitude, and I'm sure there are plenty others. Being moody didn't make them bad mothers (except when kits were trampled.) I just think my bad mothering lines just happened to be high strung and moody, and my best mothering line just happened to be friendly and easygoing. If I hadn't crossed the two lines together, I wouldn't have to raise so many does or cull so heavily for temperament...but I mentioned earlier that one of my Silver Fox had a growth trait I really liked, along with the fur. I have no idea how long it will take to root the nasty temper genes out of the lines, but I'm committed.

I love being able to handle all my animals bare handed, and checking nestboxes without fear of repercussions. I really do feel that having does asking to be pet and cuddled when I'm checking their kits is more fun than having to hold one down to avoid a nip.

So aside from the chin rubbing, my unbred girls pretty much act like the bred ones.

Zass posted

The higher strung rabbits were more likely to attack the buck, more likely to trample and scratch their kits when they jumped in the nestbox in fits of "protectiveness." They tended to wean earlier, and never had or raised quite as many babies. That, and they were just generally less fun to be around. (Yeah, I'm mostly taking about the silver foxes.)

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Thanks--I'm learning so much. Just wondered about the part quoted above since my buck is SF and we plan to breed back to him--do you find them higher strung/more difficult than other breeds?

and from Marinea

As far as breeding, since we are raising for meat and not show, we breed early. My does get bred by the time they hit six months. My first timers have had litters ranging from 8 to 11 kits. I have lost one kit to being dragged out of the box, but that's it. They get greens and grains from the time their eyes open, and I have lost none to weaning issues.

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Thanks, we're also raising rabbits for meat and using what we can grow as much as possible so your experience is really helpful. Have another question though about the bit copied above. When we were first reading up before we even got any rabbits, I think I remember more than one "authority" stating that 8 was the most kits a doe could care for well and that if they had more you should foster them if another doe had a small litter or just cull the extras right away. But on RT it seems that large litters are seen as a good thing. (Talking meat rabbits, not show here) Hasn't been an issue for us yet since we culled the doe who had 6 with 2 dead and another with a leg problem. The doe we're keeping through the winter has 8 each time, all survivors through meat camp time. So is there a problem with larger litters?

In larger litters the kits might not grow quite as fast, and it can stress the doe more.
It really depends on the doe. Some can handle it with ease. The black new zealand I had produced 10 in her first litter, and took a foster, and made them all fat. I'd have to wean her kits by 6 weeks too, or else she would get fat. A production bred rabbit if I ever saw one. I don't like weaning before 8 weeks, breeding back too early, or moody does, so I didn't keep her.
I didn't cull her though, I returned her to her breeder, because she had excellent production traits, it was just a bit too much for me.

Culling kits over 8 isn't something I see mentioned on here too often.

I know I'd rather feed all 11 for an extra week, than kill three newborns. It's too hard on me emotionally, and there are advantages to big litters that help justify skipping the emotional trauma of killing babies.

More kits = more genetic variety to choose from. My SF/mutt project may have never gotten off the ground if my does were only throwing 8 kits in a litter!
One of the things I disliked about the Silver Fox was the smaller litter sizes. One of my SF does would have 8 or 9 kits and was only ever able to nurse 6. I'd have to foster the rest or have them die

How is that going to fill my freezer??? I'd have to keep and breed twice as many does if they all did that. My infant mortality rate would skyrocket. NO THANKS! I like to keep as low of an infant mortality rate as possible.
If the doe has a good milk supply, there might not be much of a difference in growth rates even with a big litter.
The little 7.5 lb. Lilac doe I had could generally nurse 9 mix breed (hybrid?) kits to 5 lbs by 9 weeks. And be in fine condition the whole time.
Maybe because of her, I expect ALL of my meat does to be able to nurse at least 9 kits without struggling.

I find some can only nurse 10 effectively, and I accept that, especially from the smaller does. They don't always have to throw 9 kits, but they need to be able to handle it when I want them to nurse that many. I do get upset if I see less than 7 in a meat litter.

So...yeah, it's all about bloodlines. You have to breed and cull for the traits you like, and it's best to source your stock from a breeder with the same feed style and goals if you can.

The authority who claimed rabbits can only effectively nurse 8 must not have had lines that were bred to handle it.

Now, about the silver fox.
I know I'm not the only one who has had a hard time with them. I've talked to a few people on here about it. A lot of lines have behavior problems.

Maybe because they were rare for a while and people weren't picky about what they would save??

Perhaps because people weren't careful about what they crossed into them??

I've seen an abnormal amount of fear and fear related behaviors in all of the does I've purchased or raised, and even the doe I house-raised and totally babied from kithood was horrible after kindling.
By fear related behaviors, I mean cowering, racing around in a blind panic, and fear related aggression. Kits that wouldn't relax with repeated exposure to being handled. The bucks are usually much much better. Although, I've even seen some bucks cowering when they think I might try to handle them. The house raised doe might not have been as afraid, instead of cowering she bit me and drew blood.

There are still good lines too. I just wasn't lucky enough to find any.

I don't cull my large litters, not even for show, and if that means I don't get 6lb jrs at 4 mos, then so be it. Seems pointless for an extra lb, let them put it on as they do, they will all reach sr weight during sr prime.

I don't split litters, I don't foster, mostly because it's rare I have two does breed and give birth at the same time.. The one time I did have them bred the same day, they had litters 3-5 days apart, and when the doe died, I still lost most of the litter because no one else had kindled.

My does handle litters of 7-12 by themselves. I just feed.

As far as Silver Fox. They are the worst breed here. Awful temperaments. Culled 3 because they wouldn't breed. Culled two more because they would not let down milk. Culled two because they were biters. Even my home bred are skiddish, and I handle from birth.

Litters way smaller than Rex and Angora.

If I had not gotten someones lines to continue I would have culled them all. And with the blues not passing for show, I'm this close to making fur mittens of them all.

I do think it's because they were rare and people just bred whatever. Or maybe that's why they are so rare?

You're all giving me so much to think about.
Zass, in different posts on this thread you've said that your kits reach 5 pounds at 9 weeks and that you don't like to wean before 8 weeks. Does that mean that kits are on milk pretty much up to butchering--or do you grow them out for longer because you're using the skins? We've been weaning at 4 or 5 weeks when the kits are eating the does food readily and she doesn't seem patient with their nursing and the cage is seeming awfully full. With the size litters you mention, what size cages do you have for a doe and 10 or so kits nearing 5 pounds?
Sorry about so many questions--and over the winter I want to learn about processing the skins and maybe try that next season.

Rainey":34x46tnk said:

You're all giving me so much to think about.
Zass, in different posts on this thread you've said that your kits reach 5 pounds at 9 weeks and that you don't like to wean before 8 weeks. Does that mean that kits are on milk pretty much up to butchering--or do you grow them out for longer because you're using the skins? We've been weaning at 4 or 5 weeks when the kits are eating the does food readily and she doesn't seem patient with their nursing and the cage is seeming awfully full. With the size litters you mention, what size cages do you have for a doe and 10 or so kits nearing 5 pounds?
Sorry about so many questions--and over the winter I want to learn about processing the skins and maybe try that next season.

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That's an awesome question. My cages are 24x48X18 inches. They can only be 24 in deep, because I have short arms.
They still get too full sometimes. When that happens I'll generally wean the bucklings out earlier to help make space. As early as six weeks.
The doelings still with their mothers often seem to grow faster than the bucklings when I do that, so I drag my feet as long as I can to give them all as much time with the doe as possible.
The kits grow out of the "pestering" phase long before my does wean. I have actually seen some of my does nursing 9 and 10 week old kits. I have pics of the v-lop doing it too..

The litter I just butchered was 8 weeks. I left them all in the cage with the doe until then because it was a smaller litter, only 6.
It's easier for me when it's like that, because I'm not very good at timing my litters together, and I don't have that many pens. Every time I buy new cages for growouts, I seem to find more adult rabbits to move into them.

They were all over 4 and some pretty darn close to 5 lbs the weekend before I butchered. I may still have grown them out another week, but we really needed the meat. (We eat mostly rabbit and game meat.)

The doe's weight is good, but she looks like she should molt, so I'm going to wait a bit before re-breeding. I have 6 brood does right now, so I won't need to push any one of them very hard. I like spoiling them. (Edited a lot, because I found a lot of typos.)

Leaving the doe with the kits just means they are together longer. The doe will still wean them when she wants to. My latest litter is just over five weeks old now. The kits are fully weaned, but I have the doe in with them still as we are building some new cages. Are they still nursing? Nope. Well, not that I have seen- they don't even try to any more.

My grow out cages are 7 feet long by 30". I can divide them into two sections if needed to separate the kits by sex. I had a litter of 11 8 week old NZ kits in there, but I had removed the mom. The cage was...full, but manageable.

One easy way to tell if a doe has already weaned is to reach under her and feel if her teats are full of milk.
Or maybe just look.
It works best if you check more than once during a day, because if she's nursed recently, they will feel more empty.

Thinking about that, I know Dovetuft still had plenty of milk, although she isn't one of the ones who will nurse in front of me.
Those 8 week olds were still nursing when I butchered them. That makes them partially milk fed right up till the end.
(I wonder if that would make them more tender or tasty?)
They eat solid food at normal times too, and plenty of it! They would starve if not provided with it.
Kits don't start eating other foods because the doe is weaning, they eat because they are rabbits and it's natural for them to nibble and eat all the time, and their bodies eventually demand more energy than they can get from milk alone. I imagine their digestive tracts also require them to start moving that fiber through at a certain age to get everything started.

With that last litter I had limited their pellets and fed a lot of hay for the last two weeks, because I feared they would be too fatty if I hadn't. Glad I did too, because they still had a fair amount of body fat.

To be honest, I don't really care when the doe weans, so long as she gets along with her babies, and they grow well. It may be just coincidence that culling heavily for temper and mothering has led to later weaning does. The trend coincided with better weights for me at earlier ages, so I'm not arguing with the does...they can nurse all they want so long as their condition is good. Maybe it will help keep them from getting too fat between pregnancies.

I have never had a doe "get tired of" or moody with her kits. I've never seen a doe attack older kits, but I have had one try to mount a 10 week old. I'd cull any doe who did get testy with her litter, because I want them to get along. I just haven't had to yet. Perhaps culling them early for poor tempers helps prevent that sort of nonsense?

Well, see how the lines are selected to suit the breeder? Mine grow well for me, but I doubt they would do well with much faster breed backs. They just aren't being selected for that.

Still trying to put all this information together. It isn't that the doe gets moody with the kits exactly--I just notice her hopping away when one is trying to nurse, and if I saw one of the goats doing that with her kids I'd think she was weaning them. But we don't really see the kits nursing much and I understand from other reading that the does don't spend a lot of time in the nest box etc. Our cages are 30x36x18 and they're currently in a small shed that means we only have good access to the front and we put the feed (fresh forage of various kinds) in a feeder mounted to the outside wort of like Grump's hay feeder. Also have hay available all the time on a side feeder and give some grain in a J-feeder. But it seems like there isn't room for everyone to get good access when we dump fresh stuff in and I think that is part of why we decide to move them out. Will have to rethink this and will have more options next year when we get the new barn built and that will have much better rabbit room. Then we'll also be able to try more different things with feed and weaning time to see what works for our rabbits and our choices about natural feed. So much of the information is contradictory and sometimes I can see that it is because of different goals or different climate or different breeds. And sometimes I'm just left puzzled.
And one of the puzzling things lately has been the discussions about molting. Haven't noticed our rabbits doing it. Do all rabbits molt and is it at a particular time of year and is there anything we need to do about it?