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Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#31  Unread postby MamaSheepdog » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:35 pm


The beauty of a free market society is that if someone consistently sells an inferior product, they will not be in business for long... unless there are enough fools out there that will buy animals from a bad situation to "save" them- in which case, they shouldn't moan about the costs involved to bring those animals back to good health. Conversely, those that offer value for your money will do well.

I abhor the "nanny-state mentality". It is our responsibility to make wise choices, not delegate them to the government. Especially when the government fails miserably at keeping us "safe" in any case.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#32  Unread postby trinityoaks » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:46 pm


toastedoat37 wrote:If the purchaser isnt allowed to do that, then the usda will be doing it. ITs a good thing for the buyer, a pain in the ass for the seller.

WRONG!! As with everything else, "let the buyer beware". Quit begging your nanny government to do your due diligence for you!!

But if the animals are Livestock, differnt set of rules.

Guess again!! When are you going to understand that THE COURTS WILL APPLY PET RULES TO LIVESTOCK?!?!?!?! In fact, they've ALREADY been doing it!!

Random Rabbit wrote:And i'm here to say ... as a BUYER it is a royal pain for me. I rarely have the time and extra $$ to be able to travel Across the country to "inspect" a sellers premises. I do my research... i check references and Make My Own Decision if i am willing to take a chance on a particular critter.

I do Not need a govt entity to hold my widdle hand and make it all better should things not work out perfectly.

AMEN!!
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#33  Unread postby Kyle@theHeathertoft » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:23 pm


The beauty of a free market society is that if someone consistently sells an inferior product, they will not be in business for long... unless there are enough fools out there that will buy animals from a bad situation to "save" them- in which case, they shouldn't moan about the costs involved to bring those animals back to good health. Conversely, those that offer value for your money will do well.

I abhor the "nanny-state mentality". It is our responsibility to make wise choices, not delegate them to the government. Especially when the government fails miserably at keeping us "safe" in any case.


COULDN'T. AGREE. MORE. :)
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#34  Unread postby SatinsRule » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:49 pm


MamaSheepdog wrote:The beauty of a free market society is that if someone consistently sells an inferior product, they will not be in business for long... unless there are enough fools out there that will buy animals from a bad situation to "save" them- in which case, they shouldn't moan about the costs involved to bring those animals back to good health. Conversely, those that offer value for your money will do well.

I abhor the "nanny-state mentality". It is our responsibility to make wise choices, not delegate them to the government. Especially when the government fails miserably at keeping us "safe" in any case.


Random Rabbit wrote:And i'm here to say ... as a BUYER it is a royal pain for me. I rarely have the time and extra $$ to be able to travel Across the country to "inspect" a sellers premises. I do my research... i check references and Make My Own Decision if i am willing to take a chance on a particular critter.

I do Not need a govt entity to hold my widdle hand and make it all better should things not work out perfectly.


BRAVO!!!

This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a lady in my hometown. She owns and runs the town news rag, and every Thursday publishes a column which advocates expanding every social program known to mankind. She would think nothing of shredding the country's military budget to fund it, either, but here is the funny part: Shortly after I retired from the USAF 4.5 years ago, I dropped into the newspaper office, and get this, she began telling me how she thinks "every young man should have to serve a term in the military right after they graduate high school." The rationale was that the young men in our society need to learn responsibility in the most desparate way, and what better way to do it than to force them into service and get barked at for a few years every time they fail to make their beds or fold their drawers?

While everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions, the following questions pretty much set that stance on its ears:

1-How are we going to fund clothing, housing, feeding, training, providing medical and dental care, educational benefits, paying, and building facilities for these tens of thousands of young men every year when they graduate high school, while at the same time funding replacing our already outdated and decrepit equipment?

2-Since when was it the job of a drill sergeant, training instructor, drill instructor, etc. to undo in 8-13 short weeks what a young man's parents failed to do in 18 years?

You folks are hammering on some obvious points which one can arrive at when and ONLY when they take up responsibility for themselves and quit expecting the government to be their end all/be all. The nanny state mentality which pervades our society is where the problem lies. Want proof of it? Go back and research the crowd which makes up all the "Occupy _______" rallies today. They aren't looking for help, just a handout. The day we get it through the thick heads of our own people to quit expecting the government to do everything for them and start fending for themselves, alot of these problems will take care of themselves.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#35  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:58 pm


Ok, so the POINT of this post was not for all of us to sit around and be "arm chair quarterbacks"....get your butts in gear and GO COMMENT ON THE SITE instead of preaching to the choir!!!! LOL Seriously, they are only taking comments until July 16th...then they will review the comments and then review the changes and THEN we will see what happens. But it will stay EXACTLY the SAME if we don't get out there and let our voices be heard!

http://www.regulations.gov/#!submitComment;D=APHIS-2011-0003-0001
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#36  Unread postby toastedoat37 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:27 pm


Making the wrong comments like yall are doing in here will hurt ya more than help ya,,,,,,if the rabbit business is not self regulating,,,,the usda will step in,,,it cant be regulating if everyones rabbitry is private,,,,,why the hell do you all want to be so secretive about your rabbits?

It doesnt matter if you raise meat, or pets or show animals, if your selling and not allowing your customer to come see your operation if they want to , somethings wrong, if you want your rabbitry private, dont sell rabbits.

If you want to operate a business , you need to follow the rules just like any other business.

__________ Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:24 pm __________

mama,, the rabbitry being private along with the internet will allow people to keep selling sick rabbits, if the rabbitry isnt private , word can get around and put those people out of business,,,,thats what this whole thing is about.

__________ Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:27 pm __________

I got a question, how many of you that sell rabbits are willing to write out a bill of sale?

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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#37  Unread postby Kyle@theHeathertoft » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:29 pm


I'm not ashamed in the least of my rabbitry. Quite the opposite. I have nice, healthy animals in some really ludicrously large enclosures, and soon I'll be setting up a whole new, much nicer block of hanging cages for my French Angoras.

And I do NOT, repeat, NOT!!! want people in my rabbitry. I don't like people I don't know or trust in my space. What if they've just come from some kind of vile cesspool and pet my stock? How many diseases could unwashed hands transmit??? Why should I be FORCED to let someone into my VERY private property to inspect my setup? If they aren't comfortable buying from someone who won't have them in their facility, then they can buy from someone else.

"Buyer beware." I got burned last year on a pair of rabbits. I don't blame the people who burned me, though I sure won't buy from them again...and I have nobody but myself to blame, so I deal with the loss and move on. :P It happens, and it isn't the government's job to save me from making my own mistakes.

We need less regulating, NOT MORE.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#38  Unread postby toastedoat37 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:49 pm


People keep saying,,,buyer beware,,,,,thats right ,and a responsible buyer will find out where the animal they are buying came from,,,,,,,and when they cant,,,,they will complain and thats when the government who work for the people will step in to do what they cant do.,,,,,NO ONE FORCES ANYONE TO GO IN THE PET BUSINESS OR ANY OTHER BUSINESS.

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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#39  Unread postby trinityoaks » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:56 pm


toasted, you're hopeless. You want pet rabbit sellers put out business SO BADLY that you will sell your soul to the devil (as well as sell out the rest of us).

toastedoat37 wrote:It doesnt matter if you raise meat, or pets or show animals, if your selling and not allowing your customer to come see your operation if they want to , somethings wrong, if you want your rabbitry private, dont sell rabbits.

You have NO clue, and I'm guessing you will never get one. It's obvious (to everyone else here, at least) that NO ONE agrees with you and never will agree with you. Just stop.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#40  Unread postby Kyle@theHeathertoft » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:05 pm


You have NO clue, and I'm guessing you will never get one. It's obvious (to everyone else here, at least) that NO ONE agrees with you and never will agree with you. Just stop.


Figured that needed possible repeating. :)

People keep saying,,,buyer beware,,,,,thats right ,and a responsible buyer will find out where the animal they are buying came from,,,,,,,and when they cant,,,,they will complain and thats when the government who work for the people will step in to do what they cant do.,,,,,NO ONE FORCES ANYONE TO GO IN THE PET BUSINESS OR ANY OTHER BUSINESS.


...................buisness? I am a rabbit HOBBYIST, not a buisness. :P Not everyone who breeds or sells is running a buisness.

Let me test my understanding.

Person A wants to buy a rabbit from Person B. Person B does not allow people into their rabbitry- which is their choice since it is THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY. Person A doesn't want to buy from someone if they can't inspect the facility, so...they want the government to FORCIBLY INSPECT Person B's property????????????

How about...if Person A really has a problem with not being allowed in Person B's rabbitry, they just DON'T BUY FROM THAT PERSON???? :shock:

I literally cannot follow your logic as it has so many holes in it.

Like I said before, I do not like people I don't know and trust in my rabbitry. I keep my rabbits in my basement, which means that if I want to let a buyer see my facility they have to ENTER MY HOUSE. That is NOT going to happen for a MULTITUDE of reasons...and if they have a problem with it, they can buy rabbits elsewhere, because I am in rabbits for my own reasons, not as a buisness venture.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#41  Unread postby -HRanchito » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:00 am


toastedoat37 wrote:Making the wrong comments like yall are doing in here will hurt ya more than help ya,,,,,,if the rabbit business is not self regulating,,,,the usda will step in,,,it cant be regulating if everyones rabbitry is private,,,,,why the hell do you all want to be so secretive about your rabbits?


The USDA people didn't wake up in the morning and go, "MAN, these rabbit breeders are just going WAY TOO CRAZY. Let's write a law that forces them to compromise their biosecurity, so all their rabbits get sick and die! (MUAHAHAHAH)"

No, it's because of purebred/designer/teacup dogs and cats with price tags above a grand. The bill is written about the dog industry. Nobody gives a crap about rabbits. The USDA wrote a bill about DOGS because their inspectors had enough free time and funding that they could troll the internet for small-time magicians, which seriously, is way less glamorous than fining puppy mills up the arse.

Also, I don't think we have to worry about rabbit railroads -- you don't buy a pet on the rabbit railroad, you buy show bunnies or brood stock.

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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#42  Unread postby toastedoat37 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:24 am


kyle,,,i understand it being your hobby and you not wanting to follow rules and regulations. I myself have never been an employee,,,ive had several differnt businesses in three different states in my life. Each one of them started out as a hobby. But when your hobby starts to turn into a business, well we just have to follow the laws of the land (God said so). Ive been in the process of closing down my business the last year and half because cant stand all the regulations and inspections, but i do understand the reason that they are needed.
Ive been away from raising rabbits for quite few years, and now that im interested in it again, im amazed at how the rabbit world has changed. I feel that something does need to be done about it. With all the WRONG things being taught by people online about rabbits, and all the iresponsible breeders , people starting out are not gonna be able to figure out what information is correct and whats not. I dont know how it can be fixed, but i think that the government trying to do something about it is the lessor of two evils,,,,the other , letting it go on the way it is.

Your comment about no one agreeing with me , and never will,,,,well, no one has to agree with me, no one has like me, no one has to respond to me, a few will learn from me, and i have been learning some things from some. I know a lot of the stuff ive said in this thread is fact, some of its opinion.
But im not gonna just go along with what the majority says just to "fit in". I know that some here do.

__________ Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:24 pm __________

the arguement that you dont want someone coming through your rabbitry because of biosecurity is really an arguement for the need to have some inspections. Your saying that there are so many sick rabbits out there that your afraid yours will get sick , law makers are gonna say, well if this is the case, something needs to be done about it.

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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#43  Unread postby SatinsRule » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:47 am


toastedoat37 wrote:I got a question, how many of you that sell rabbits are willing to write out a bill of sale?


Most of us do. It's a document which is commonly referred to as a pedigree.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#44  Unread postby Miss M » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:28 am


toastedoat37 wrote:the arguement that you dont want someone coming through your rabbitry because of biosecurity is really an arguement for the need to have some inspections. Your saying that there are so many sick rabbits out there that your afraid yours will get sick , law makers are gonna say, well if this is the case, something needs to be done about it.


Actually, it has nothing to do with sick rabbits, and everything to do with rabbits in different rabbitries being resistant to different things.

Like that Indian tribe that was wiped out because the settlers they came in contact with had been exposed to smallpox and were resistant to it. Smallpox had never been over here, so when the Indians were exposed, it tore through them like wildfire, and killed them all. All except for one, a very famous one... Squanto. He survived because he had been kidnapped and taken to Europe. When he came back, his tribe was gone.

If that tribe had never been exposed to the European settlers, they would presumably have remained healthy and still been there when Squanto returned. The Europeans weren't sick, though. But they and the Indians were resistant to different pathogens.

There are pathogens -- bacteria, viruses, fungi -- all around us. Each farm will have a unique mix of these. The animals that thrive there are the ones that are resistant to the germs that are there. A mile away, is another farm with its own mix of germs. Farmer A wants to buy a rabbit from Farmer B, and goes to Farmer B's place to check out his rabbits. Farmer B lets him tour his rabbitry, maybe handle some of his rabbits. A few days later, Farmer A's other rabbits start showing symptoms of illness. His rabbits were not resistant to some germ that Farmer B brought over on his clothes.

Does this mean Farmer B's animals are sick? No. It just means they are resistant to that particular germ, while Farmer A's are not. So what doesn't bother Farmer B's animals at all begins killing Farmer A's rabbits. The government inspecting either facility will not do any good at all. All the animals are healthy, as long as they aren't exposed to each other like happened when Farmer B toured Farmer A's rabbitry.

Farmer B takes his new rabbit home. If he puts that rabbit right into his rabbitry, he is endangering his other rabbits -- not because the new rabbit is sick, but because it could be carrying something it is resistant to, that his herd is not. If he is wise, he will quarantine the rabbit for a month, so it is slowly introduced to the germs at the new farm, and so Farmer B's rabbits are slowly introduced to the germs from the new rabbit.

This is one of the big reasons for closed rabbitries and biosecurity.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#45  Unread postby toastedoat37 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:07 am


satin, a pedigree paper has nothing to do with a bill of sale

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