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Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#16  Unread postby tailwagging » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:23 am


toastedoat37 wrote:there are already rules and regulations having to do with selling pets you raise if its more than five hundred dollars a year , federal ,state and city rules , that people dont follow , license your supposed to have depending on where you live.People dont follow them.And since we have the internet , there are thousands of people that operate businesses without licenses they are supposed to have .


$500.00 is ONLY if you sell to a middle man!! NOT the final buyer.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#17  Unread postby Random Rabbit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:45 am


SatinsRule wrote:
3mina wrote:
SatinsRule wrote:There is an excess in the amount of gray areas and loopholed language, all of which leaves way too much open to the interpretation of an investigator/inspector of the USDA within this proposal.


That seems to be the point of a lot of these regulations and laws, if it's full of loopholes then the average person isn't going to try to thread the gauntlet and will stop raising and owning animals. JMO


The problem is that the interpretations are bent and slanted to suit whoever is in the DA's office and what their agendas happen to be at the time. All of the interpretations are formed in concert with local law enforcement.

It's increasingly common to create large loopholes in the wording of the law to allow such a thing to exist, and given the mindset of the czars in current administration, it's being orchestrated at a high level. If there is an extreme far-left special interest, they embrace it tightly.




BINGO Sarah Conant (sp?) formerly of H$U$ legal team... is way up in the Rule making atmosphere of USDA...


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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#18  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:42 am


tailwagging wrote:
toastedoat37 wrote:there are already rules and regulations having to do with selling pets you raise if its more than five hundred dollars a year , federal ,state and city rules , that people dont follow , license your supposed to have depending on where you live.People dont follow them.And since we have the internet , there are thousands of people that operate businesses without licenses they are supposed to have .


$500.00 is ONLY if you sell to a middle man!! NOT the final buyer.


Actually, it CAN be the final buyer, if that final buyer is a lab or any type of exhibition, like a petting zoo. One of the decent changes that has been proposed, is to remove the $500 limit if you meet the "retail pet store" standard as laid out in the proposed changes, which is basically that your buyers come to your place of business, ie. home/farm, to purchase the rabbits. What I would like to see is the wording clarified to state, "buyers must meet sellers face to face, at a place mutually agreed upon, to complete the sale."
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#19  Unread postby Random Rabbit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:23 am


OneAcreFarm wrote:
tailwagging wrote: What I would like to see is the wording clarified to state, "buyers must meet sellers face to face, at a place mutually agreed upon, to complete the sale."



I partially agree with this... However.... it will put a stop to Buyers making arrangements to pick-up rabbits at Convention. Or other places... without making a trip to meet the Seller first.

We purchased... sight unseen, Seller never met in person... a lovely doe for our breeding program. We picked her up at Convention... She was ALL i wanted her to be, and we have been very happy.

I have had Far fewer problems ( read Zero) with long distance livestock Buying... than i have had purchasing appliances IN a store !
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#20  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:32 am


Random Rabbit wrote:
OneAcreFarm wrote:
tailwagging wrote: What I would like to see is the wording clarified to state, "buyers must meet sellers face to face, at a place mutually agreed upon, to complete the sale."



I partially agree with this... However.... it will put a stop to Buyers making arrangements to pick-up rabbits at Convention. Or other places... without making a trip to meet the Seller first.

We purchased... sight unseen, Seller never met in person... a lovely doe for our breeding program. We picked her up at Convention... She was ALL i wanted her to be, and we have been very happy.

I have had Far fewer problems ( read Zero) with long distance livestock Buying... than i have had purchasing appliances IN a store !


Hmm...did not think about that....how about "buyers must be given the opportunity to SEE the animal in person, at a mutually agreed upon location, before the completion of the sale to verify the health status of the animal."
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#21  Unread postby Kyle@theHeathertoft » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:09 am


Hmm...did not think about that....how about "buyers must be given the opportunity to SEE the animal in person, at a mutually agreed upon location, before the completion of the sale to verify the health status of the animal."


Good wording there.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#22  Unread postby MamaSheepdog » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:31 am


Kyle@theHeathertoft wrote:
Hmm...did not think about that....how about "buyers must be given the opportunity to SEE the animal in person, at a mutually agreed upon location, before the completion of the sale to verify the health status of the animal."


Good wording there.


How about "Buyers or their designated representative" - that way if an animal is going to be shipped by air, or transported across country in some way which makes returning it cost prohibitive, you can designate a Veterinarian or other trusted individual to assess the health of the animal for you.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#23  Unread postby trinityoaks » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:06 am


MamaSheepdog wrote:
Kyle@theHeathertoft wrote:
Hmm...did not think about that....how about "buyers must be given the opportunity to SEE the animal in person, at a mutually agreed upon location, before the completion of the sale to verify the health status of the animal."


Good wording there.


How about "Buyers or their designated representative" - that way if an animal is going to be shipped by air, or transported across country in some way which makes returning it cost prohibitive, you can designate a Veterinarian or other trusted individual to assess the health of the animal for you.

I like this! That still allows for rabbit railway situations.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#24  Unread postby Random Rabbit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:47 am


However... a designated representative... will then be considered a "Broker" and thus fall under the regulations...

*sigh* !!!
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#25  Unread postby tailwagging » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:05 pm


OneAcreFarm wrote:
tailwagging wrote:
toastedoat37 wrote:there are already rules and regulations having to do with selling pets you raise if its more than five hundred dollars a year , federal ,state and city rules , that people dont follow , license your supposed to have depending on where you live.People dont follow them.And since we have the internet , there are thousands of people that operate businesses without licenses they are supposed to have .


$500.00 is ONLY if you sell to a middle man!! NOT the final buyer.


Actually, it CAN be the final buyer, if that final buyer is a lab or any type of exhibition, like a petting zoo. One of the decent changes that has been proposed, is to remove the $500 limit if you meet the "retail pet store" standard as laid out in the proposed changes, which is basically that your buyers come to your place of business, ie. home/farm, to purchase the rabbits. What I would like to see is the wording clarified to state, "buyers must meet sellers face to face, at a place mutually agreed upon, to complete the sale."


I was answering to a quote about selling PET rabbits not labs rabbits. but yes a usda exhibitor CAN buy from pet breeder and the breeder does not have to be USDA unless the exhibitor is going to resell them, then they are dealers and the breeder must be USDA.

you might be right I'll go check

yes you are right


(ii) Any person who sells or negotiates the sale or purchase of any animal
except wild or exotic animals, dogs, or cats, and who derives no more than $500
gross income from the sale of such animals to a research facility, an exhibitor,
a dealer, or a pet store during any calendar year and is not otherwise required
to obtain a license;
Last edited by tailwagging on Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#26  Unread postby MamaSheepdog » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:09 pm


Random Rabbit wrote:However... a designated representative... will then be considered a "Broker" and thus fall under the regulations...

*sigh* !!!


Oh. :? Sheesh.
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#27  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:21 pm


Random Rabbit wrote:However... a designated representative... will then be considered a "Broker" and thus fall under the regulations...

*sigh* !!!


They would only be considered a "Broker" if THEY paid the seller and then I paid them. If my payment is made directly to the seller, then they are merely my "representative".
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#28  Unread postby MamaSheepdog » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:09 pm


OneAcreFarm wrote:They would only be considered a "Broker" if THEY paid the seller and then I paid them. If my payment is made directly to the seller, then they are merely my "representative".


Oh! :P Super!

LOL...
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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#29  Unread postby toastedoat37 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:16 pm


Tailwagging,,,,,they are just talking about federal law, i was including state and city also. Not ever state is the same , but at least some of them have retail sales tax. If you breed pets to sell retail, you are a business, required to get a tax id number from the state, and charge retail sales tax at the rate of what ever city you are selling it in. Part of the reason for the update on federal law is because people ignore the laws that we already have. In my state you would legaly need to register with the state, and then have a business license for your city. Then lets say i met the person in city fifty miles away where i sold them the rabbit. I would then be doing business in yet another city, I would be required to get a business license for that city alsochIt sucks ,but thats the way it is. If you physicaly go to another city to do business, you then need that citys business license.

Also i think most of you are missing the whole thing about the inspections,,its not just about inspecting the one animal you are buying,,its about inspecting all thier animals to see if there is illness where the one you are buying came from.If the purchaser isnt allowed to do that, then the usda will be doing it. ITs a good thing for the buyer, a pain in the ass for the seller.

But if the animals are Livestock, differnt set of rules.
Last edited by toastedoat37 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposed Changes to Animal Welfare Act/APHIS/USDA

Post Number:#30  Unread postby Random Rabbit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:24 pm


And i'm here to say ... as a BUYER it is a royal pain for me. I rarely have the time and extra $$ to be able to travel Across the country to "inspect" a sellers premises. I do my research... i check references and Make My Own Decision if i am willing to take a chance on a particular critter.

I do Not need a govt entity to hold my widdle hand and make it all better should things not work out perfectly.
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