OT: but a MUST read....why it is sometimes better to butcher

http://www.happytailzfarm.com/story_of_elmer.htm

This relates to goats, but I can see it being applicable to us as well.

I've seen it with horses. We used to go to the auction monthly. Lots of people would breed stuff with no papers or that had major physical flaws and sell the colts. It was particularly an issue with arab owners who tend to fall in love with their stallions and become blind to their flaws. If they were lucky the colts went to the kill buyer and that was the end of everyone's trouble. Otherwise they got shuffled around and went through the ring wilder than the last time until they landed in a bad home or got pitched out in a huge field in a breeding herd to make more grade horses to send through the ring for the kill buyers. Then some morons decided we should ban horse slaughter in the US. We stopped going to the auctions after that because it was just too sad. Took home a few free horses right before that though because people would pull their number stickers, shove them in another stall, and abandon them after they failed to sell. After a day or 2 of standing there with no food or water and not being claimed they'd be given away for free or they'd be taken to someone's nearby field and shot.

Wow, that is really sad. We do see the same thing with rabbits, too.

I have giant holes in my memory. Thankfully, Mom remembers that I took good care of my rabbit Duchess when I was a teen. I finally had to give her to a friend with a farm (and other rabbits) when I went to college, and my parents moved out of state. I know she had a good life there (I had been there). She finally died of a spider bite, several years later.

The first member of our meat rabbit herd, Thumper, was "set free" by his previous owners.

It certainly would have been much kinder to butcher Elmer when he was young than to put him through all that. He could have had a happy life right up to the end, and then never know what hit him. Much better than selling him off over and over to owners who were increasingly clueless and indifferent, only to have to put him down at the end, scabbed, broken, and diseased.

I know those members who sell pet rabbits do everything they can to ensure their rabbits go to responsible people who will care for them well, but I've never been able to bring myself to sell rabbits for pets for exactly these reasons. Very sad how so many animals end up unwanted, neglected or abandoned. I've never understood how people can be so callous.

Yea, and I bet they probably treat their children as badly as they treat thier pets...

Such a sad, but all too true, story. And for horses, the decline in the number of Kill buyers has local auctions inundated with horses--we get them in from other states so the buyers that can cross the borders readily can buy and transport them...<br /><br />__________ Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:31 pm __________<br /><br />a sad, but too often repeated story...

MaggieJ":etkgx297 said:

I know those members who sell pet rabbits do everything they can to ensure their rabbits go to responsible people who will care for them well, but I've never been able to bring myself to sell rabbits for pets for exactly these reasons. Very sad how so many animals end up unwanted, neglected or abandoned. I've never understood how people can be so callous.

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What drives me around the bend is that these same people would call me a monster for eating "cuuute wittle bunny wabbits", which is exactly what they say to me, while their large dog neurotically paces and licks holes in his fur, kenneled in a 6x6 run reeking of feces.... :evil:

maybe I should offer to eat their dog, they obviously don't think he is cute. (just a bad joke, I draw the line at dogs, though I did wish I could liberate him somehow)

Thing is.. people pull out stories like this which prevents the good first time buyers from getting a new animal as well.

So just because someone(s) are twit(s) shouldn't stop pet sales from occurring.

I can understand folks not wanting to kill their sweet little something and wanting to give it a chance.

That goat Elmer could just has easily landed up in an excellent forever home, he just had the misfortune of not ending where his people had hoped he would.

So the question is: should you or I give people a chance OR should we always assume the worst of them? I choose to assume the best, and offer the worst the opportunity to return said animal to me if it becomes an issue for them. No questions asked.

Ladysown, you are an extremely ethical rabbit breeder and I think your safeguards for the welfare of the rabbits you sell are very adequate. I think Elmer's story is meant to point out the sad consequences of breeding without a plan and not being able to bring oneself to make the hard decisions that are sometimes necessary as a result.

That's a terribly sad story, poor Elmer.

ladysown":3mphxk2y said:

Thing is.. people pull out stories like this which prevents the good first time buyers from getting a new animal as well.

So just because someone(s) are twit(s) shouldn't stop pet sales from occurring.

I can understand folks not wanting to kill their sweet little something and wanting to give it a chance.

That goat Elmer could just has easily landed up in an excellent forever home, he just had the misfortune of not ending where his people had hoped he would.

So the question is: should you or I give people a chance OR should we always assume the worst of them? I choose to assume the best, and offer the worst the opportunity to return said animal to me if it becomes an issue for them. No questions asked.

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Ladysown,

I don't think that was the original author's intent...her point was that Elmer was sold as a "pet" without getting the benefit of the procedures that would make him a good pet, ie. dis-budding and wethering. I feel the same way you do, I would like to see an animal have a chance at a good life. There are people, like the lady in the story, who get animals and breed them without knowing what they are doing or what they will do with the offspring. That seems to be what happened in this case. I doubt that this would happen with you because you DO know what you are doing and you DO breed with a plan in mind. I am not saying it is better to always butcher...but if a person isn't going to do what they can to give the animal every chance at a good, happy, healthy life, they are not doing the animal any favors. Just my own thoughts...

I would sell a lot more pet rabbits if I could afford to neuter them all but the cheapest vet is $70 here and at best I might get $50 back from the rabbit. Usually I only get like $10-$20 for pet quality rabbits. I try to sell all bucks to people looking for pets and only sell does if I don't have enough bucks that meet what they want or the person is interested in neutering at least one gender.

I agree with ladysown... the intent is to scare and make you feel bad. The goat kids are a byproduct of the goat milk industry, in order to GET MILK one must breed to freshen the goat! Its not like they CHOSE the sex of the kids, and they had every right to sell it at the FARM market! It is entirely the fault of the buyers; the first ones didn't neuter him either and obviously had NO idea about buck goats, the second one supposedly a farmer who didn't know anything about animal husbandry??!! also was to blame. The story teller and I wonder how really "true" the story is could have intervened at the beginning as well but they offered up some sort of excuses about that!Well we can all offer some excuse or another... it just seems if you're telling the story its ok to make excuses and if you are the story's character its not ok. Just the fact that she didn't try to bring the buck back to good health and instead shot it sounds suspiciously like PETA, the ones who don't want any domesticated animals for whatever reason at all? I just question the right of someone to tell others how to run their lives....

I have to wonder how true it was too, it was awfully dramatic. One rarely gets to follow an individual animal thru it's life like that.

However, as a defense of butchering I don't think it was a PETA story.

I believe things like this do happen though, and have seen it myself. I think the real caution is not to pet sellers, but to uninformed buyers--too bad that the fact that they are uninformed means they wont read it!! :roll: I still read it as more of a defense of the decision to butcher--I face a lot of family/friends in denial about how meat gets in those styrofoam packages.

Eco2pia,

That is exactly how I read it, not as a rant against "pet" breeders or selling animals as pets. Like you, I wonder if it was a dramatization based on things that can and do happen...

Someone in that chain of events could have done something to improve his life. But no one did...I think it speaks more to owner responsibility than trying to scare someone into never selling pets.

I am sorry this has been a point of contention...I did not mean it to be. It just made me really think about things and I wanted to share.

eco2pia":9dwckxo5 said:

I have to wonder how true it was too, it was awfully dramatic. One rarely gets to follow an individual animal thru it's life like that.

However, as a defense of butchering I don't think it was a PETA story.

I believe things like this do happen though, and have seen it myself. I think the real caution is not to pet sellers, but to uninformed buyers--too bad that the fact that they are uninformed means they wont read it!! :roll: I still read it as more of a defense of the decision to butcher--I face a lot of family/friends in denial about how meat gets in those styrofoam packages.

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<br /><br />__________ Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:24 pm __________<br /><br />

Devon's Mom Lauren":9dwckxo5 said:

I agree with ladysown... the intent is to scare and make you feel bad. The goat kids are a byproduct of the goat milk industry, in order to GET MILK one must breed to freshen the goat! Its not like they CHOSE the sex of the kids, and they had every right to sell it at the FARM market! It is entirely the fault of the buyers; the first ones didn't neuter him either and obviously had NO idea about buck goats, the second one supposedly a farmer who didn't know anything about animal husbandry??!! also was to blame. The story teller and I wonder how really "true" the story is could have intervened at the beginning as well but they offered up some sort of excuses about that!Well we can all offer some excuse or another... it just seems if you're telling the story its ok to make excuses and if you are the story's character its not ok. Just the fact that she didn't try to bring the buck back to good health and instead shot it sounds suspiciously like PETA, the ones who don't want any domesticated animals for whatever reason at all? I just question the right of someone to tell others how to run their lives....

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I can see how it could be taken that way...but I think that if it was PETA related they would bend over backwards to keep it alive even if it was suffering. I am sorry if this offended you, I guess I got something different out of the story when I read it. Animals that are bred responsibly, cared for lovingly and slaughtered humanely are not the miserable, suffering creatures that groups like PETA tell everyone they are. Sometimes, it is the other way around.

Shannon

I know of many horses that keep showing uo at the livestock auctions-- going to worse and worse homes until they show up in such bad shape that even the "kill buyers' won't take them. And look at dogs that get adopted from shelters, only to wind up back in the shelter-- until eventually, it gets euthed or ends its life on the end of a chain in some forgotten back yard. I know plenty of people who do not castrate the young livestock males-- why? because they are not going to have a long life--For the rare breed sheep-- if the lamb is not breed worthy, it will be processed before the hormones kick in. For the cattle-- the bullocks are grown out apart from the cows- get along well as long as there are no females in the immediate vicinity-- the herd bull stays with the cows-- they go from pasture to processor--

when buying an animal from a public auction, or adopting from a shelter-- one never knows what the animals previous history truly is. A friend adopted a female lab mix-- the reason on card for giving the dog up-- "too many dogs" well, this was a bitch, about 5 years old, with VERY large, distended nipple line-- "too many dogs' meant she was a puppy factory-- whether intended or not-- the owners dumped her rather than get her spayed! One shelter I volunteered at-- a nice collie showed up 'reason for drop off "she bites" After bathing, grooming, and cleaning this poor girl up-- I noticed she had a slight problem-- the dog, only two years old, was stone cold BLIND!! No wonder why she 'bites!' She never even snapped at me-- but then, I tended to talk to the animals as I worked with them!!!

I Know how to buy an animal at a livestock auction-- I have even learned which local sources to stay away from-- And thanks to my late friend Bob,, when i buy my first horse, it will probably be from the auction-- But you can bet I will enter the holding area armed with information... like how to tell if an animal has been juiced...