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Color help - Blue or Super Steel Flemish Cross

A place to ask about rabbit colours and to discuss rabbit genetics -- and how to breed for the desired results.
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Color help - Blue or Super Steel Flemish Cross

Post Number:#1  Unread postby aussiegirl » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:34 am


Hi everyone.
I haven't been on for a while but can someone tell me if an Agouti colored rabbit can produce Blue if both mum & dad carry it?. (Don't judge me but this litter has been Line Bred)

The dad is a Blue New Zealand (his parents were same color) OR Is he Super Steel I wonder?
The Mum is an Agouti Flemish x New Zealand (her mum is New Zealand White & dad is the same male above) so she has been bred back to her dad. They had 9 kits and it looks like there is Black, Agouti or Steel, Opal and Blue or Super Steel in the litter.

IMAG0664 (2).jpg
Resulting litter at 2 wks old
IMAG0664 (2).jpg (255.64 KiB) Viewed 375 times


1st nz x flem boys-8 wk 2 dys_LI.jpg
Mum when 8 wks old
1st nz x flem boys-8 wk 2 dys_LI.jpg (201.9 KiB) Viewed 375 times


blue or steel male 2 (2).JPG
Dad
blue or steel male 2 (2).JPG (333.74 KiB) Viewed 375 times

blue or steel male.JPG
Dad
blue or steel male.JPG (306.69 KiB) Viewed 375 times

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Re: Color help - Blue or Super Steel Flemish Cross

Post Number:#2  Unread postby hotzcatz » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:37 pm


An agouti can produce plain blue if they have a recessive 'a' gene for a solid color pattern instead of the dominant Agouti pattern as well as a dilute gene (recessive 'd') to dilute the dominant 'B' (for Black) gene into the dilute blue version.

To get blue, you need: aa B_ C_ dd E_. Your basic agouti pattern is A_B_C_D_E so your agouti - in order to get blue - must have Aa B_ C_ Dd E_ and be mated to a bunny with a recessive 'a' and 'd'.

There is a blue version of agouti, I think it's called 'Opal'. Same thing as the blue genes except it has the dominant Agouti pattern along with the blue color.

Looks like one of the parents carries the Vienna gene, that's what makes the little white spots on them.
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Re: Color help - Blue or Super Steel Flemish Cross

Post Number:#3  Unread postby Zass » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:50 pm


Hotzcatz, that white mark reminds me a lot of the little white marks only on the head that silverfox sometimes carry, save for that nose snip. Similar to the one baby cottontails have and outgrow. There are other white marking genes besides vienna, and I suspect this is one of them, but can't prove it. My hunch is that buns will mostly outgrow them as they age. it could be tested by crossing them together to see if they throw blue eyed white rabbits.

The only thing that makes me suspect more than one copy of steel in the father is the absence of any clean agouti, of either color, in the litter.
More test breeding would be necessary to prove that one way or another.

I don't see any opals, and there are no chestnuts. The ears on the younger ones are a dead give away, though it gets harder to tell as they age. If they are free of steel, the ears and bellies on young kits are very obviously white and not cream.

Dad could still be self, self with one copy of steel, self with two, agouti with two copies of steel, or possibly, agouti with non extension and steel. With one copy of non extension, he would only have 50% chance of passing it on, so not every kit of his would get it.

If your doe is a clean agouti, none of your kits can be super steel (because steel always shows on agouti, if she doesn't show it, she has none to give.) But, I'm suspecting your doe a to be lightly effected steel instead of a chestnut, as she came from the same sire. If she is a true chestnut, then your buck can only possibly carry one copy of steel.

__________ Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:49 pm __________

The difference between opal and blue gold tipped steel is usually apparent in the belly on older kits. The creamy (not white!) belly here shows that rabbit is a blue steel. Some steels have all the way blue bellies and almost no agouti marks at all, but no steel has the full agouti pattern.

2178
This opal has no steel, see that pretty white belly?
2927

These two are both gold tipped steels , showing some of the variety steel can produce. One looked black as a kit and took a long time to show ticking, the other one was an obvious steel as a kit but grow up to look almost-chestnut agouti.
2379
2378

I wish I had more of my old pics! I hope this clears up some of the confusion, a little.

__________ Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:50 pm __________

I wouldn't strain your eyes trying to tell a self from a sneaky steel. Either it's apparent, or it isn't. :lol:

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Re: Color help - Blue or Super Steel Flemish Cross

Post Number:#4  Unread postby Mini Lop Fan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:10 pm


I just had a litter with both opal and blue gold tipped steel. I will send pictures as soon as I get some more updated ones.

__________ Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:10 pm __________

And I second what Zass said. I have a buck that is self steel non-extension (aaB_C_ddE(s)e). I would never have guessed except for the kits I got when I bred him. Steels are one crazy gene :D

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Re: Color help - Blue or Super Steel Flemish Cross

Post Number:#5  Unread postby aussiegirl » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:34 am


Thanks Mini Lop Fan Some pictures of your kits would be great for comparison, also thanks Zass for the info & pictures of differences of belly color in Opal and Blue Steel. I was looking at the picture I posted of the mum and realized the photo is of her brothers as she has two white feet (she has the Vienna Gene from her mother the New Zealand White) I have a feeling that they may in fact carry steel, I will try take another photo of her & update.

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Re: Color help - Blue or Super Steel Flemish Cross

Post Number:#6  Unread postby Mini Lop Fan » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:42 am


Here are some pictures! They just turned three weeks on Sunday. Since I have a black GTS as well, I went ahead and added some pictures of him, his coat, and his ears so you can compare with the blue.

The blue GTS is taking longer than the other two to get his ticking in, but the gold tips are visible.
Blue GTS:
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.20.00 AM.png
Blue GTS fur
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.20.00 AM.png (319.23 KiB) Viewed 348 times

Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.19.45 AM.png
Blue GTS ear
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.19.45 AM.png (485.45 KiB) Viewed 348 times

Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.23.55 AM.png
Blue GTS from above
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.23.55 AM.png (552.07 KiB) Viewed 348 times

Opal:
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.19.02 AM.png
Opal fur
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.19.02 AM.png (346.23 KiB) Viewed 348 times

Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.19.19 AM.png
Opal ear
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.19.19 AM.png (267.17 KiB) Viewed 348 times


__________ Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:42 am __________

Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.28.18 AM.png
Opal
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.28.18 AM.png (364.65 KiB) Viewed 348 times

Black GTS:
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.17.05 AM.png
Black GTS fur
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.17.05 AM.png (267.88 KiB) Viewed 348 times

Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.16.15 AM.png
Screenshot 2020-06-22 at 9.16.15 AM.png (445.16 KiB) Viewed 348 times

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Re: Color help - Blue or Super Steel Flemish Cross

Post Number:#7  Unread postby aussiegirl » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:18 am


Awsome thanks for the pics Mini Lop Fan I'll take a closer look at babies when I have a day off work as heading to work shortly, My litter in question turned 3 weeks Monday 22nd.

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