Disease Identification?

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Mini Lop Fan

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One of my customers just had her bunny die unexpectedly, with the following symptoms: "His symptoms were runny eye, crusted nose, struggling to breathe really shallow and slow, poopy butt (just balls of regular poo sticking to his fur down there) which is NOT like him as he is always cleaning, he lost his bowels all over me, can’t walk almost as if he lost all movement in his legs, won’t eat or drink, and started to have seizures. All happened within a couple hours and I had to make a 2 1/2 hr trip to the emergency vet to get there and they had him for less then 5 mins before he passed." She said the vet thought it was diabetes, what do y'all think?

Thanks in advance!
 
That's actually typical that they barely make it to the vet and then expire. The closest vet to me won't treat bunnies since she says they almost never make it and it gives her a really bad reputation even though there was nothing she could do since the bunnies are so far gone by the time they get to her.

All this happened in several hours? They have a fast metabolism (part of what makes it such a problem when they become sick) but I'd guess the bunny may have been hiding some symptoms for awhile before all this turned into an avalanche. As a prey species, they don't ever want to look sick or hurt since predators like to take out the weak ones.

We've never experienced all those symptoms together before but we don't feed sugar treats so we've not had diabetes to deal with so I couldn't guess if it was diabetes or not. The vet would have a much more educated opinion than me. Did they do tests?

Do you know what your customer was feeding the bunny? Maybe too many sweet treats? How long had the customer had the bunny? Several months or longer, we hope? How long does it take to create diabetes in bunnies?

I'm not a vet so my opinions mean nothing, but if we had a bunny with a runny eye, crusted nose and shallow breathing, it would sound like a cold and we'd feed it oatmeal.

The "can't walk, losing his bowels" along with the no cleaning sounds almost like a broken back? Won't eat or drink is a really sick rabbit or a rabbit wanting to die, the seizures could be from the whole pile of things wrong and may have been a symptom instead of a condition, but I'm not a vet and didn't meet the bunny. There may not be just one thing wrong, it could have been several?

Rabbits are a common laboratory animal, you'd expect some labs would want diabetic ones to test medicines on. Hmm, here's an article that had diabetes in NZ rabbits, but it was from severe inbreeding to create it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7007801 Here's a medically created diabetes in rabbits, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3014707/ however, again, the symptoms mentioned by your customer weren't mentioned.

Rabbits as a laboratory animal have created a huge amount of information about rabbit medicines and such, however it takes a bit to wade through the scientific language.

Hmm, a less medical terminology site, but here's their 'clinical signs for diabetes': (from: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Metabolic_diseases/Diabetes_en.htm )

"Clinical signs

In cases of experimentally induced diabetes, hyperglycemia is accompanied by polydipsia (excessive thirst), polyuria (excessive urination) and polyphagia (strong desire to eat)."

Well, just as a non-medical person, I'd guess it's not actually diabetes that killed the rabbit, but the vet probably has other things to do than to come up with an exact diagnoses for a dead patient. Especially one they saw for less than five minutes and did they charge for the visit? If they didn't, then they have even less reason to do an autopsy.

I'd guess your herd is safe from a genetic propensity for diabetes. If you sell another rabbit to that customer, perhaps a bit of rabbit care education may be in order? Especially in how to pick up and handle a rabbit, if it were me, I'd suspect a broken back was part of the issues. But, it's just me as a non-medical person on the other side of a computer screen so my opinion is of no real validity.
 
Hopefully your customer wont be too traumatised by this sad event, how long had it been since she adopted it or did something big recently happen? That can be a big factor.

From my experience so far, it's really hard to tell without seing the bunny irl. Bunnies are rly fragile so it mightve been a combination of small things that did it in. Plenty of times I've lost young 2 month olds for seemingly no reason....

My guess is it had a respiratory infection to begin with, it mightve been almost unnoticeable prior to things getting worse.
Then it got an upset stomach from eating something bad or too much new stuff and stress.
From there, being already secretly vulnerable it just got out of hand, the customer probly didnt notice anything until it got far too late to do anything.
The not able to walk is a common result of either diahrea or bloating when they reach the end and the seizures also once their organs start shutting down.

The potential respiratory infection could've been treated if noticed but upset stomach issues are the worst... survival rates are extremly low if not noticed right away. Also when a bunny is already weakened by an infection they become more fragile to other issues at the same time so it becomes really hard to know what went wrong for sure...
When I sell my bunnies I give plenty of hay and pellets to transition to new feed. Customers often say "oh we're ok, we already bought some" but I always insist. I explain how diahrea is deadly within 2 days and the best way to trigger diahrea is skipping the transition between hay and feed... even if one might think they're the same.... If my hay bales look too different from each other, even if they were harvested at the same time on the same farm, I transition. One side of the field might have different plants to the rest and upset some tummies otherwise. Between batches of pellets in the same brand, if the smell is different I transition.... it mightve been cooked in the car or exposed to humidity, the pellets are fine as long as they dont look moldy but with factors like that I prefer to be safe. The customer mightve fed it fresh veggies or grass without doing a slow introduction too, also something I stress about, no more then a bite the first couple days and then slowly increasing the ammounts per day etc
Bunnies can also often get diahrea from being too stressed. So other pets harrassing em, too much noise from a party, the kids being too rough with it, moving to a new area and not being allowed to settle in with no place to hide etc.... That all can trigger it and if something was already sightly wrong in secret even more so.
 
michaels4gardens":15qcpgay said:
my guess ... = pasteurella
Yup, the infection mightve been minor and unnoticed. Part of the potential "respiratory infection" I mentionned
 
a thorough check of feed, and hay for mold [or dust] would be in order.
In my experience, most rabbit illness of this type, can be traced back to "other factors",
that weaken the rabbits immune system.
Mold contamination, including moldy ingredients in pellets.
poor air circulation, causing ammonia buildup in the environment..
residual coccidiosis infections... etc.
-unexplained deaths, should always be followed by a thorough exam,
a careful look- at lungs, liver, and small intestine... often reveals the cause...
even something random , very quick, and nasty, like clostridium perfringens C [bloodshot heart, lungs, and organs]
is often tied to "other factors"...
 
hotzcatz":4nxcvszc said:
We've never experienced all those symptoms together before but we don't feed sugar treats so we've not had diabetes to deal with so I couldn't guess if it was diabetes or not. The vet would have a much more educated opinion than me. Did they do tests?

Do you know what your customer was feeding the bunny? Maybe too many sweet treats? How long had the customer had the bunny? Several months or longer, we hope? How long does it take to create diabetes in bunnies?

Yeah I have never seen symptoms like that and to me it looks like a mix of several diseases probably starting with too many treats. :(

I am trying to figure out a kind/not harsh way of explaining that they may have been feeding him too many treats and not the right diet....If y'all have any good articles on proper dieting that I could send them that would be awesome. <br /><br /> -- Sat May 16, 2020 9:11 am -- <br /><br />
KimitsuKouseki":4nxcvszc said:
The not able to walk is a common result of either diahrea or bloating when they reach the end and the seizures also once their organs start shutting down.

The potential respiratory infection could've been treated if noticed but upset stomach issues are the worst... survival rates are extremly low if not noticed right away. Also when a bunny is already weakened by an infection they become more fragile to other issues at the same time so it becomes really hard to know what went wrong for sure...
When I sell my bunnies I give plenty of hay and pellets to transition to new feed.
I always supply a bag of transition feed, but supplying transitions hay is something I haven't been doing--good to know. :) It had been over a month since they got him, so he was about three months old. I have never seen this before, so I think it was something wrong with their feed (or the treats they may have been giving him.) He was a indoor free-range rabbit after all.
 
Mini Lop Fan":3gf7489b said:
hotzcatz":3gf7489b said:
I am trying to figure out a kind/not harsh way of explaining that they may have been feeding him too many treats and not the right diet....If y'all have any good articles on proper dieting that I could send them that would be awesome.

I always supply a bag of transition feed, but supplying transitions hay is something I haven't been doing--good to know. :) It had been over a month since they got him, so he was about three months old. I have never seen this before, so I think it was something wrong with their feed (or the treats they may have been giving him.) He was a indoor free-range rabbit after all.
I always found the transition hay is the most important, rabbits should eat 90% hay to 10% pellets, pellets are suposed to be just a supplement, not the main food. I have big feeders so my bunnies eat what they want, but hay is the most important. It has the most noticeable change in content that can upset tummies between hay bales/bags anywhere. When I buy a new bunny I ask for transition hay and pellets and if they refuse to give any I'll be managing what they eat for the first few days. I'd give very small portions of hay/pellets every few hours and increase the amounts each day until I'm sure there wont be an issue.
You might think I'm being overly carefull, but I've had some really bad experiences in the past so I try my hardest to avoid these things happening again :cry:
Not all breeders give enough of the proper type of hay to their rabbits and if one of those bunnies all of a suddent gets unlimited access to yummy nice hay it's certain doom.... Not saying it's the case with you, I'm just talking in general and this had been the case for a few of my bunnies when I started. Some I saved, others not and then I started being paranoid about it...
My hay comes from a small farm that has mixed fields with plenty of grass and clover in it, the bunnies love it and even my customers comment on how nice my hay is and how sometimes their bunnies dont like the hay they buy at the store cause it's not nearly as good XD
Treats and exposure to grass have to be handled in a similar manner, small amounts at a time. If they want to prep a rabbit for outdoor roaming they can take in a bit (no more than a pinch at first) of fresh grass for a few days before letting it out proper.

All you can do is be firm with them if they decide to get a new bunny from you. Just like when doctors have to give bad news to a patient, you don't want to beat around the bush, don't blame them, be there for them if they need it but also let them handle the information given to them clearly. Let them know how to be extra careful this time so it doesnt happen again. I basically gave you my speech on feed for when I sell a bunny : transition and slow introduction to new stuff is the name of the game forever when it comes to bunnies. You can say you asked online and many people stressed about this being a probable factor in the last one's downfall and so it gives you an excuse to talk about it without sounding unreasonable compared to before.

Also, do some reasearch on recognising early signs of respiratory infection : frequent sneezing fits, crusty front paws, in the case of pasteurella paw absesses, noisy breathing, etc. A benign infection can easilly go unnoticed. Better to be informed than not just in case the knowledge can prove usefull for another bunny in the future.
 
We don't feed any hay at all since hay is shipped in from the mainland and it is $38 per small square bale. It also mildews before I could feed a quarter of it to the herd so the bunnies here have to make do with fresh forage. They do get a lot of fresh grass, leaves and twigs to make up for lack of hay. Not that angoras were ever a wild rabbit, but wild rabbits eat almost all pure fresh forage during the summer in places that have snowy winters, don't they?

I have a care of angoras page at: http://hillsidefarmhawaii.com/pages/bunnycare/care.html I could add in general bunny care on either that page or a different one if it would help folks here. The reason we have a website for the bunnies at all is to not have to answer the same questions about how to care for the bunny over and over again. But, it could be changed or added to for general bunny care so other folks could send their customers there and not have to answer as many questions as well.
 
hotzcatz":3ieroqeb said:
We don't feed any hay at all since hay is shipped in from the mainland and it is $38 per small square bale. It also mildews before I could feed a quarter of it to the herd so the bunnies here have to make do with fresh forage. They do get a lot of fresh grass, leaves and twigs to make up for lack of hay. Not that angoras were ever a wild rabbit, but wild rabbits eat almost all pure fresh forage during the summer in places that have snowy winters, don't they?
Well yes, mixed hay like I have is just dried up forage XD Hay is just easier to store for most people.
 
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