Really Young Kits "Decomposing Alive"

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Glad you're taking care the dogs and critters other than rats cannot get at it. Because you are right that there is no antidote for those newer poisons.

If you are using them in the house as well as outbuildings, are you concerned about having to deal with the smell of decomposing rats? Please post the outcome when a little time has gone by, because I know a lot of people worry about that.
 
Update: The poison seems to have had a strong effect. Activity ramped up but now all seems quiet. No dead rat smells yet, though. Unfortunately the damage had been done still. Out of an initial 29 kits, I'm down to 6 now. They just constantly died every day since my initial post. Every morning I've been pulling dead kits from nest boxes. Even after the rats stopped coming. I think there was some disease that was transferred somehow because the kits all seemed healthy one day and dead the next.

Just this morning had to remove 3 more bodies between two separate nests. They didn't even look dead most of the time. I have to physically poke them for a reaction. Still extremely fast decomp on some of them despite colder conditions, but no visible bites on them since the older doe died.
 
Deer Heart":2jwg6rds said:
Update: The poison seems to have had a strong effect. Activity ramped up but now all seems quiet. No dead rat smells yet, though. Unfortunately the damage had been done still. Out of an initial 29 kits, I'm down to 6 now. They just constantly died every day since my initial post. Every morning I've been pulling dead kits from nest boxes. Even after the rats stopped coming. I think there was some disease that was transferred somehow because the kits all seemed healthy one day and dead the next.

Just this morning had to remove 3 more bodies between two separate nests. They didn't even look dead most of the time. I have to physically poke them for a reaction. Still extremely fast decomp on some of them despite colder conditions, but no visible bites on them since the older doe died.
a good cleaning of everything is in order-- then-- attempt to re breed..
 
Update; the rat and mouse population seems to have declined enough I'm no longer seeing signs of their presence. I did have 2-3 die in my walls but the smell was incredibly faint since our winters are dry here. I could maybe detect them for a week, but mainly in the bathroom wall so I just kept the door closed and just fabreezed before each use. It was only really bad if you were outside though. No fly issues.

I had more kits die and now only have 2 survivors out of the original 29. BUT. I have thoroughly cleaned and re-bred along the way and my angora had 8 yesterday and one of my rexs had 9 the day before.

I am using wood chips now to line the bottom of the nests and giving moms mounds of hay to use as they wish. Works notably better so far @ nest sanitation, fingers crossed we recovered from this tragedy.
 
Well I have some good news and a caution for the few folks who use this style of nestbox; it turns out it was mostly the type of bedding I was using with this kind of nest box.

Yes, I had a rodent infestation and it wasn't helping the situation at all. But, upon review of the types of injuries and decomp I was seeing, not to mention continued losses even after most of the culprits were dead (I lost about 3-6 AFTER all signs of rat and mouse activity completely subsided). My conclusion was that something else was killing the kits and the rats were just taking advantage/being drawn in by the dead kits.

What explains it though, was mostly my fault. I changed the bedding. Yup, something so simple and dumb cost me almost every last kit. I have been using a thick shredded paper base for years (would shred my junk mail and use it for padding and then offer the moms copious amounts of hay to top off the nests). This became predictably labor intensive the more mother buns I got and it was difficult to compost, plus as complained about earlier - it had a tendency to become papier mache when moistened by urine and was entrapping babies. So this season, I decided to switch to a thick hay base and offer moms more hay for building. Bad idea. Apparently, aside from the fact pure hay by itself does not handle any moisture well, it kicks out of this style of nestbox very easily, and - worst of all - the main reason almost every baby died; it does not CUSHION the babies when the mother rabbit descends into the nest to feed (this kind of nest box is down below the main cage, moms don't crawl in like most kinds of nestboxes, they jump down to the babies and then jump up to the main cage). The only thing that explains the types of injuries I was seeing, is they were being crushed - repeatedly - any time the mother would try to feed them and there was nothing the mother could do to avoid it as there wasn't proper padding.

Unfortunately, I didn't figure it out until I switched the bedding again.

Once I was sure the rodents were still under control, I cleaned everything and re-bred a pair of does (ones that lost all their kits at the very start within a few days of having them). This time I changed to a thick layer of fine pine shavings because it was more absorbent and had a smell that might deter rodents (plus they created a surface that would be easier for me to locate deceased babies immediately for removal, it was very hard to find them in the hay).

This time there has been no early losses like before. The babies are even opening their eyes now and I'm noticing the pine shavings not only held up better than anything else (most of the original nesting hay is gone now, even. I need to give more, but wanted to get these pictures first showing what I'm talking about), it is being compacted down. From the mothers. /smh. They're also still bone dry and very clean. :)

Conclusion: Type of bedding makes a huge difference in rabbits.


Photographic evidence of this:

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I use these types of nest boxes with only hay. I do put a liner (either cardboard or a type of thin belting that allows drainage) in the bottom during the summer and line the sides during the winter. I've never experienced these types of problems even with 10lbs does. I've never seen any sign of rat activity in my cages. I'd still be inclined to believe it was the rats, even if just as a vector for bacteria.
 
Could be the cardboard on the bottom was part of why you haven't had the problem? It blocks hay being shoved out and kits digging to the wire bottom - I don't have any cardboard though, except on extremely rare occasions, so never used any for this purpose. Just paper bedding in the bottom for the last few years, only hay this last time, but now wood shavings. Never had deaths like this before doing nothing but hay and apparently no deaths after. Never gets cold enough here to cover the sides of the nest box. The concern most of the year here is overheating them, which is why I chose this nestbox style in the first place. Anything to cool my kits down and allow for better circulation.

I'm not saying rats didn't contribute btw, I just think this may have started it.
 
Maybe? The one time I tried to use them without a liner, I accidentally got a kits leg stuck between the bottom and the cage. Thankfully, it screamed and I moved it and then got a liner. They do end up digging down to the cardboard especially when it is warm out. It doesn't have to be cardboard, anything that is sturdy and slightly porous would work. I've used paper feed sacks before, they don't work quite as well as the cardboard because the does can shred it more easily (they shred the cardboard as well) but it does work. What about denim fabric or fleece? I've never used it but might work to let moisture out but hold the hay in. I don't know if those would hold moisture to much or not? Liquor stores and some other stores often have boxes they will let you have. I've used those before if I was running low.

I'm glad your getting kits again whatever the cause.
 
@ Michaels, that's flipping genius. IDK why I didn't think of that. I have a row of 6 more cages I still haven't installed nests on so I may just with those. Do you do anything for the sharp edge that is left?

Also, we have fledgling babies. I came home to find all my E angora and Rex babies testing the feeders and waterers. My first surviving group of E Angora too. Very exciting. :) It's funny how different they look to the Rex. Even their heads are shaped different - yet they're all about the same size. :lol:
 
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