raising rabbits the old way --

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Mine got cocci in a large building with 4' up solid walls that rats barely find an opening on rubber mats and pine pellets. I would guess birds(also how I think we got e.coniculi)+ humidity. Iowa sees about +10F and -20 or even -40 degrees on to arkansas range of temps with humidity swelling the doors to the point of not shutting in summer and so dry in winter I have 3 whole house humidifiers to not end up with a sore throat this year after last year it went below what our digital humidity monitor would even detect. This winter was almost 60F one week and -15 with snow for 4 days the next week so things here have to survive all extremes including weird middle of the season spikes or drops. There are probably more livestock deaths in spring or fall than the heat or cold by itself. I was reading about a growing issue in texas of more temp spikes in winter causing cattle to overheat because they have their winter coats and are being fed for cold only to generate too much heat if fed before the temp rises on an abnormally warm day. Frostbite is more common when it thaws, raises humidity, and then just barely freezes than dry -20F. I had to cut away dead rooster combs in fall a few times when it did that.

I have fly strips in my house in town in winter and regularly dumping things down the drain to kill gnats is standard even if you own no pets. The maggots are less annoying and troublesome than the ones that go from egg to fly in 24-48hrs including on floating water that has any contamination to use as a food source. They can make 100s with one forgotten item between cleaning. I had animals go into seizures due to buffalo gnats in spring, I'm treating a dog for lyme, and the mosquitos get so thick the dogs have swollen ears and eyes if not treated with the repellent they hate.

I frequently ask myself why I live here. :lol:
 
Ozarkansas":33exs753 said:
I would like to point out 2 things. 1 LOCATION! I've lived in Northern California and Northwest Arkansas. In Northern California we could keep the rabbits on 1 × 1 or even 1 × 2 wire with no resting matts. And no sore hocks. Rabbits could be on the ground without getting Coccidiosis or other parasites. The lowest the temp ever got was 17° that was the very lowest. Highest was around 100°. Also hardly any bugs! Seeing maggots was like a rare ocassion. Moved to NW Arkansas and that changed the humidity and heat of the south uhhgg! Parasites are a big deal! There is no putting rabbits on the ground for more than a few minutes. Good furred rabbits get sore hocks on 1 × 1/2 wire without a resting mat in the summer. Temp is so extreme! From 3-° to 115°! Waste starts to build up at all you get maggots in a day or so. Just saying that changed things a bit. 2. BREED. My meat mutts can take most anything. Cabbage throw it at 'em, sugary foods they can have those too, purebreds are allergic to hay, mutts immune to snuffles. Purebred has 2 dead kits at 40° mutt has 10 live kits at 10°. It just really depends on some certain factors
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I wondered why I had such trouble with my rex and sore hocks. I'm in Southeastern OK so only about 4-5 hrs from NW AR. I "think" I've finally got the hock issue worked out. I kept back the rabbits that had the fewest problems and kept bucks that had had no problems. Culled everyone else and then put either 1x2 pieces of 1" holed plastic lattice or some plastic floor tiles that I got when sears went out of business in all the cages.

I didn't have any problems last summer after this, and things still look good through winter (although it's been a remarkably dry winter). Most of my cages are 1x1/2 16 gauge floors because that is all I can get locally without paying huge shipping costs.


I am thinking of making some 2 ft ceramic rods and seeing how those work for flooring. The problem would be getting them straight.
 
alforddm":2zu8u8my said:
[b:2zu8u8my said:
I wondered why I had such trouble with my rex and sore hocks[/b]. I'm in Southeastern OK so only about 4-5 hrs from NW AR. I "think" I've finally got the hock issue worked out.
]
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From my understanding..... the Rex was developed by the same man that authored the rabbit raising section of Raising poultry and rabbits on scraps, - these rabbits were developed on "deep litter" type of conditions... and brought "over here" fairly recently.. I theorize, that the Rex hasn't had as much time to develop "tough feet" as some of the other breeds... and "over there" they still raise them mostly on "deep litter" ...
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I've posted here a bit about my colony, really a big cage but it's outdoors exposed to the elements. There is a thread about it around here somewhere. Top, sides and rear are plywood or chipboard with a corrugated metal roof and the front is 1x1 cage wire with a door to each compartment. It is built on a pad of 24"x30" patio slabs and in total measures 5'x18' with six compartments.

I initially got a buck and three does in Feb 2008 from a respected breeder near me, Moonkitten, who was on this forum in the early years. They were New Zealands and I built cages and kept them in the garage for a few years. They were very good stock, healthy and they bred well but the multiple cages were a bit of a pain to change all the poo pans out on a regular basis.

A few years ago (5-6, maybe?) I needed to put my old pickup truck in the garage for future restoration so I built the colony in the backyard and moved them there. They seemed to adjust fine and I've been very happy with the setup.

As previously mentioned, they are on concrete patio slabs that I cover with fresh straw and change it out as often as needed. I can get busy at times and be a bit tardy with the cleanout so there can be some buildup in the corners but it never really gets stinky. The patio slabs also help keep their nails worn down so I haven't had to trim any nails since they went out to the colony. In the summer they clear the straw away and lie right on the slab to keep cool.

I've had very few health problems even though they come into regular contact with their own poop due to it being mixed in with the straw. I've never had a spotty liver and haven't had a snotty rabbit since they moved outside. They breed year round through the heat and the cold and does have nursed many litters during the winter when they only get fresh water two or three times a day when I can swap the frozen bottles out. One doe raised two kits on January a few years ago when it was down into the -20's and they did just fine. I was told that two kits wouldn't be able to keep enough heat between them to survive the cold but the doe stuffed so much straw into the next box that I had to reach in up to my elbow to get to them. Once in a while I get one rabbit out of a litter, maybe at about four or five weeks, that develops a rattly breathing but no snot and none of the others gets it. They butcher out just fine. I think that being exposed to the elements has bred a real hardiness into my rabbits. Thy are generally sheltered but are exposed to a wide range of temperatures, any germs, bacteria or viruses that are in the area and occasionally some rain or snow that blows in. They are on a commercial pellet but get grass clippings, including any of the wide variety of weeds that comprise my lawn, and garden and kitchen scraps when available.

I think there was a thread n this forum not too long ago discussing a guy who suggested keeping a herd of rabbits together even if some of them were sick. Others might get sick, some may die but his reasoning was that the ones that came out of it healthy would have built up an immunity to whatever it was and not be as susceptible to getting sick. I think that was the gist of it anyway.
 
Since I have no intention of raising rabbits commercially again- ... [if I live long enough] I would like to start raising rabbits "the old way" again- i have designs [blueprints] I kept for making all metal "old style" cages.[designed after the pictures in "Raising Poultry and Rabbits on Scraps] https://www.amazon.com/Keeping-Poultry- ... B00358VHQ0 .., i want to go back to a more sustainable way of doing things.-- For Home Meat production- I see no reason it should work less well then it did years ago......
 
i have designs [blueprints] I kept for making all metal "old style" cages.[designed after the pictures in "Raising Poultry and Rabbits on Scraps] https://www.amazon.com/Keeping-Poultry- ... B00358VHQ0 .., i want to go back to a more sustainable way of doing things.-- For Home Meat production- I see no reason it should work less well then it did years ago......
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I imagine it should work as well as it always did. :)

One thing that makes me hesitate about the deep litter method is the constant input model of providing litter. Anytime I've ever had rabbits on the ground it was similar, with a never ending need to provide fresh layers of bedding. I guess it makes more sense if you have a free or cheap local source of material, but could be prohibitive for people in more urban areas. Both for the cost, and increased waste production.

On the plus side, additional high cellulose bedding material makes the rabbit waste absolutely perfect for vermicomposting as-is.
 
Zass":oa8j5ocl said:
i have designs [blueprints] I kept for making all metal "old style" cages.[designed after the pictures in "Raising Poultry and Rabbits on Scraps] https://www.amazon.com/Keeping-Poultry- ... B00358VHQ0 .., i want to go back to a more sustainable way of doing things.-- For Home Meat production- I see no reason it should work less well then it did years ago......
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I imagine it should work as well as it always did. :)

One thing that makes me hesitate about the deep litter method is the constant input model of providing litter. Anytime I've ever had rabbits on the ground it was similar, with a never ending need to provide fresh layers of bedding. I guess it makes more sense if you have a free or cheap local source of material, but could be prohibitive for people in more urban areas. Both for the cost, and increased waste production.

On the plus side, additional high cellulose bedding material makes the rabbit waste absolutely perfect for vermicomposting as-is.
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one thing i miss about the old system, is the extra composting material for mulching my winter crops-- wire cages produce only manure , that is great- but, when it comes to mulching my kale and carrots for winter- the manure is not nearly enough.
Another "factor" i have been "mulling over" is- the rabbits [and chickens] that grow so fast, may not have as much food value as those that grow at a slower rate... When I had a "mostly Asian" market, the customers would not buy the "fast growing" breeds of chickens- because ,they said they did not "give health" Those people would bring their pregnant women to my farm, and pay the extra price for chickens from breeds that grew much more slowly, to feed their pregnant women. -- One man summed up their theory by saying-- soft meat= soft baby-- we need strong baby... fast growing chicken is weak chicken. They loved the rabbits...
 
About deep litter in my colony . . .

The space was 8 feet square, pallet wood floor. I would put down a bale of wood shavings for starters. Since the rabbits diet was based on free choice alfalfa hay and there was a lot of stemmy waste, material was constantly added by the activities of the rabbits. This meant there was a relatively clean, dry layer on top and the bunny berries and the urine drained to the bottom.

We cleaned it out completely from time to time and started fresh with a bale of shavings. The removed litter made great mulch, but the chickens liked to have a go at it when it first arrived on the ground outside the rabbit house.

Alfalfa hay (about 80% alfalfa/20% grass and weeds) was about $3 a square bale (maybe 40 pounds?) and straw was the same price. So it made sense to allow waste of the stemmy alfalfa for the litter.

My rabbit meat cost about 75 cents a pound, half what it cost when I was feeding pellets (the costs included maintenance of the breeders as well as raising grow-outs.) And both the free-range chickens and the garden benefited as well. In my climate, parasites and diseases like coccidiosis are a relatively small risk, due to our long, cold winters.

I think there is a difference between rabbits being raised directly on the ground in an outdoor pen and rabbits raised in an indoor colony on deep litter. One factor may be that the indoor litter stays a lot dryer. Notice that Truckinguy's outdoor colony has a full roof and three solid walls, so again it likely stays fairly dry. It also has paving stones that provide good drainage.
 
when I raised rabbits in a wood hutch, on a solid wood floor , clean out was not much of a problem for most of the does, as they would pee in a back corner and the sloped floor would cause it to just run out the back and fall on the ground. The cages stayed mostly dry, so I could ignore cleaning until it was getting too deep , or we needed fertilizer for the garden. However- there were always those does that would want their pee spot in the front of the cage, so I had to watch those hutches carefully , so it did not get to be a fly-blown mess in the summer, or too wet in the winter. [I culled some does just for that reason]
When there was a litter of rabbits in those hutches I had to start cleaning every week the month before I butchered them- so that aspect of solid floor cages was more work than raising them on a wire floor.
I also think successfully raising litters all winter [in Montana] was mostly due to the wood hutch, solid floor, and deep layer of straw. I think the does were able to keep warm easier, and build a deep nest or burrow in the back corner that would protect the kits from wind and the sub-zero outside temperatures.

I have no idea what straw costs nowadays- I was raised on a farm that raised grain, or lived near farms that did , and straw was free or nearly so- I think using shavings might become problematic for some garden crops.. and straw was an important source of the "longstem fiber" missing in diets of greens and root crops.
 
michaels4gardens":33vlirns said:
I have no idea what straw costs nowadays- I was raised on a farm that raised grain, or lived near farms that did , and straw was free or nearly so- I think using shavings might become problematic for some garden crops.. and straw was an important source of the "longstem fiber" missing in diets of greens and root crops.
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We don't grow grain or live in an area that does, but we have a sawmill. Our rabbits are in wire cages but we put a thin layer of sawdust in the pans that go under them. It soaks up the urine and makes the pans easier to empty and clean. The trays are emptied into the compost bins or directly onto beds during the growing season. We use shavings from planer and jointer mixed with peat mossas bedding in our worm box for indoor composting. Also use shavings on the floor of the winter chicken coop and sawdust for bedding in the goat shed. If we kept rabbits on solid floor with bedding, I'd think the shavings might be ok but probably sawdust could be too dusty and cause respiratory problems. It's interesting how we each have different givens to work with and how that shapes our ways of raising our animals.
 
The deep litter stayed dryer on top than when I was scraping down to the mats and trying to keep a thin layer of clean pine pellets on it. I just put 2 whole bales of hay and a whole bale of straw per 12x12' area in there with a fresh layer of pine pellets every spring and fall. The problem was when it came time to clean the stuff out because I had a foot or 2 of dirt to fresh sawdust/hay/straw mulch over top of my packed aglime floors that I just couldn't shovel myself. The chickens actually didn't produce half as much waste over a year of deep litter method so despite having a 170sq ft wood oat bin as the coop it only took a handful of wheelbarrow loads to pile it out back and even after 3 years of doing that the linseed oiled hardwood floors underneath were still just as good of condition and dry as when I put "new" (I found the huge container of the stuff in another of the old outbuildings) oil layer on them.
 
michaels4gardens said:
and, the immune system starts with mom, exposing rabbits to germs they have never encountered, often results in a sick rabbits --- at first.. but in a while {if they survive] they develop immunity ... that's why bringing new rabbits into your rabbitry is always a risk.

One thing I have experienced , that still baffles me, - is-- I didn't have coccidiosis troubles , weaning enteritis , post weaning deaths , or noticable disease of any kind--until i had a commercial rabbitry and started using commercial feed, and nice clean metal cages.. - that, makes no sense to me... When I look back on the way i did things, and the conditions the rabbits lived in-- i marvel at their productivity and disease resistance.. . I wonder what part of that equation I am missing... <br /><br /> -- Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:53 pm -- <br /><br /> another issue I have thought about- is-- in the old style solid side wood cages, there was no "nose to nose" contact between cages-- so diseases could not easily be passed from cage to cage until everyone in the rabbitry was exposed...
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It makes perfect sense to me that the ones in the natural 'dirty' cages would be healthier than the 'clean' commercial cages. That is how immune systems work. It is much better to be healthily dirty than antiseptically clean. Works that way with people too.
 
Rabbits by Accident said:
It makes perfect sense to me that the ones in the natural 'dirty' cages would be healthier than the 'clean' commercial cages. That is how immune systems work. It is much better to be healthily dirty than antiseptically clean. Works that way with people too.
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It was very interesting reading this thread from 2018. At one time I thought "I'd better not tell anyone about my rabbits on solid floors or deep litter, or I'll get skewered". It's good to read that others don't think these ideas are so crazy. Thanks for posting!
 
Rosalaun said:
I just don't think rabbits these days are quite bred to be as hardy as they once were. Over here rabbits are kept on solid floor wooden hutches, most cleaned out once a week. I still know a small number of people that deep litter and only clean fully once a month (it's actually advised by a well-respected rex keeper in his books to not clean them weekly unless they're show rabbits)... But there's a divide between a few groups in management - those that get a pet rabbit and put it in a hutch in the bottom of the garden and basically just run out to feed it over winter and that's about it, in-betweeners like me who consider rabbits as livestock (show/breeding, not so much meat over here), and just clean once a week with a few greens left from the fridge every now and again, and then there's an increasing number of people joining the 'rabbits are my best friends and are so cute and my lovely chocolate split fluffy lop babies that I bred are not going to be sold to breeding homes and must be fed exactly one cup of greens a day!!11!' group, who I believe would be far more obsessed with keeping things tidy and germ-free. I think based on these rough groups, you'd get three very different 'hardiness' levels if bred in those conditions for a few generations
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I must agree with a lot of your comment
 
MnCanary said:
It was very interesting reading this thread from 2018. At one time I thought "I'd better not tell anyone about my rabbits on solid floors or deep litter, or I'll get skewered". It's good to read that others don't think these ideas are so crazy. Thanks for posting!
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In many countries solid floors are the norm, with wire floors rarely used or even illegal.
 
michaels4gardens said:
and, the immune system starts with mom, exposing rabbits to germs they have never encountered, often results in a sick rabbits --- at first.. but in a while {if they survive] they develop immunity ... that's why bringing new rabbits into your rabbitry is always a risk.

One thing I have experienced , that still baffles me, - is-- I didn't have coccidiosis troubles , weaning enteritis , post weaning deaths , or noticable disease of any kind--until i had a commercial rabbitry and started using commercial feed, and nice clean metal cages.. - that, makes no sense to me... When I look back on the way i did things, and the conditions the rabbits lived in-- i marvel at their productivity and disease resistance.. . I wonder what part of that equation I am missing... <br /><br /> -- Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:53 pm -- <br /><br /> another issue I have thought about- is-- in the old style solid side wood cages, there was no "nose to nose" contact between cages-- so diseases could not easily be passed from cage to cage until everyone in the rabbitry was exposed...
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Natural immunity, natural food...there's a lesson in there some where. Funny how the people that lived through the great depression lived to be in their 90s. Few doctors, natural food, no commercial toilet paper, using dirty out houses. Sounds like the rabbits if your childhood.
 
HoboJuanita said:
Natural immunity, natural food...there's a lesson in there some where. Funny how the people that lived through the great depression lived to be in their 90s. Few doctors, natural food, no commercial toilet paper, using dirty out houses. Sounds like the rabbits if your childhood.
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Part of the problem today is the increasing resistance of harmful bacteria to antibiotics. We were warned of this problem initially in the early 1900's but nothing was done. As a matter of fact it obviously worsened through the decades to the point antibiotics were used to speed up the growth of animals used for food. Misuse of antibiotics by humans has developed super resistivity. We have met the enemy and he is us. Today's bacteria is not your grandma's bacteria.
 
ladysown said:
there are pros and cons to every system.
part of the problem with rabbits today is people want to save everything.
Some bunnies shouldn't be fought to keep alive, it weakens rabbits as a whole to help the weak survive.
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That's a very good point. Not enough selective breeding is done either.
 

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