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Color genetics experimenting *First litter update*

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Color genetics experimenting *First litter update*

Post Number:#1  Unread postby TeaTimeBunnies » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:13 pm


So probably for most of next year I plan to cross some of my rabbit breeds to see what colors/patterns I get. I would also love some suggestions for other crosses that could be interesting. Here are my plans so far and what I am hypothesizing I will get:
*Gold English Spot doe X Orange/Black Harlequin buck = Tri-colored English Spot marked kits
* Black Otter doe X Gold English Spot buck= black otter English Spot marked kits, and ?
* Broken Chocolate doe X Gold English Spot buck= Chocolate English Spot marked, and ?
*REW doe X Orange/Black Harlequin buck= ?
Wish me luck this next year!! I'll be posting updates as I go to see if I got what I thought I would. This will also be a genetic learning experience for me
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Re: Color genetics experimenting

Post Number:#2  Unread postby RebelScumHan » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:11 pm


Oooh, fun... I love messing with genetics and seeing what I get. <3
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Re: Color genetics experimenting

Post Number:#3  Unread postby akane » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:45 am


"Gold" is basically red? The name means nothing to me so I don't otherwise know what those genetic combinations are. That's one reason when messing with genetics, especially if breeds are crossed, I like typing in gene designations than breed color names.
The tri and harlis I never got into much so what alters the pattern I do not know the details of but if gold is nonextension you'd get all harlequin gene dominant but carrying nonextension tris.

If gold is a nonextension agouti color then black otter x gold is chestnuts with the broken gene from English Spots. Then if the rabbits carry recessives like the gold having tan/otter you can get more otter or if both rabbits have dilute you can get blue (opals) and both having chocolate make chocolate agoutis.

If gold does not have a chocolate gene then a cross to chocolate will only get you regular chestnuts. However, one site said the chocolate nonextension agouti is also gold as well as the black version in English Spots so if the gold carries chocolate you get chestnut and chocolate agouti or if it is chocolate you only get chocolate agoutis. Possibly you could get those in self colors (black for black based gold instead of chestnut or chocolate for a chocolate gold instead of blacks). All colors with broken genes of course.

REW is a complete wildcard so the outcome is not very predictable without further info on the REW.
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Re: Color genetics experimenting

Post Number:#4  Unread postby hotzcatz » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:41 pm


TeaTimeBunnies wrote:So probably for most of next year I plan to cross some of my rabbit breeds to see what colors/patterns I get. I would also love some suggestions for other crosses that could be interesting. Here are my plans so far and what I am hypothesizing I will get:
*Gold English Spot doe X Orange/Black Harlequin buck = Tri-colored English Spot marked kits
* Black Otter doe X Gold English Spot buck= black otter English Spot marked kits, and ?
* Broken Chocolate doe X Gold English Spot buck= Chocolate English Spot marked, and ?
*REW doe X Orange/Black Harlequin buck= ?
Wish me luck this next year!! I'll be posting updates as I go to see if I got what I thought I would. This will also be a genetic learning experience for me


You can't really make an educated guess unless you know the genetics behind their colors. Here's some basic genetics for the required colors you've mentioned:
Gold English Spot = A_ B_ (or bb) C_ D_ ee ww En/en (ww for the gold color, En/en for the spots)
Orange/Black Harlequin = (Black/Gold) A_ B_ C_ D_ ej_ W_ (no spots so 'en/en')
Black Otter = at B_ C_ D_ E_ W_
Broken Chocolate = aa bb _ D_ En/en
REW doe = _ _ cc _ _

I don't keep track of many of these genes since we don't have them here in our herd, but basic genetics is basic genetics. If the color code is written in lower case, then it's a 'recessive' gene and you need two of them before that color will show up on your rabbit. If it's written in upper case, then it's a 'dominant' gene and you only need one for the color to show up. With a dominant gene, there's the possibility that a recessive version of that color may be 'hiding' behind the dominant gene.

******************
Your Gold English Spot bred to an Orange/Black Harlequin would be "A_ B_ (or bb) C_ D_ ee ww En/en" x "A_ B_ C_ D_ ej_ W_ (en/en)". So now go through the genetic list and see what the possibilities are.
(A) Do either of the prospective parents have any solid colored parents or solid colors in their background? If both of them are carrying a recessive 'a', then it's possible you'd see solid color rabbits, but most likely agouti based color patterns.
(B) Apparently, depending on how 'gold' the gold English spot is, it can either be black based (B_) or chocolate based (bb). How gold is the gold? Is it a bright gold or more of a chocolate colored gold? Do either of the prospective parents have chocolate in their background? Although the gold requires the 'ww' recessive, so most likely you'll lose the 'gold' and unless your Harle has chocolate, you may end up with all black based colors.
(C) Unless both parents have any REW in their background, you'll see all colored kits.
(D) Most likely all the kits will be densely colored - i.e., no dilute colors (lilac, blue) unless both parents carry the recessive 'd' gene.
(E) Here's where it may get interesting. Anyone know if 'ej' is recessive to 'ee'? You could get fawns (ee) or you could get harlies (ej) depending on which is dominant. But since it's ej_ and ee, it will all be non-extension colors. (Fawns, harlies) if there's any 'a's in both parents, you could see torts.
(W) the 'ww' seems required for the gold color in your English Spot, not the spots. Since we don't know if the Harle has the 'w' recessive, most likely you're gonna lose the gold color, but the kits will have the recessive for it.
(En) Since 'En' is a dominant gene and the Harlequin's color comes from the 'Japanese' gene (ej) and not the broken En gene, then your Harle would carry 'en/en' (solid) at this gene location. Which means you're gonna be mixing 'En/en' with 'en/en'. The results would be one quarter 'En/en' kits which would be your English spot?

So, I'm guessing about one quarter spots and three quarters harlies?

*******************
Gold English Spot bred to a Black Otter = "A_ B_ (or bb) C_ D_ ee ww En/en" x "at B_ C_ D_ E_ W_" (en/en)

(A) the Agouti color is dominant over the at_ otter, so unless your GES has the recessive 'a', then you'll see all agouti based colors. (no otters)
(B) unless your otter has the recessive for chocolate, you'll only see black based colors
(C) unless both parents carry a recessive 'c' for REW, all the kits will be colored
(D) unless both parents carry a recessive 'd' for dilute colors, all the kits will be densely colored (no lilacs, blues)
(E) unless the otter carries a recessive 'e' all the kits will have non-extension colors (no fawns but the kits will all carry a recessive for it since the Spot only has the 'e' to give)
(W) unless the otter carries a recessive 'w' there will be no gold color, although all the kits will carry a 'w' recessive
(En) half broken (En/en), half solid (en/en)

I'm guessing in this litter it will be half agouti and half broken agouti?

********************
Gold English Spot bred to a broken chocolate = "A_ B_ (or bb) C_ D_ ee ww En/en" x "aa bb C_ D_ E_ & W_ (En/en)"
(A) Does the GES carry a recessive 'a'? If so, half the litter will be Agouti pattern, half solid colors. If it doesn't then 100% agouti pattern and all the kits will carry a recessive 'a'.
(B) Is the gold on the English spot chocolate based or black based? If it's chocolate based, then 100% of the kits will be chocolate. If it's black based with the 'ww' making it gold, then is there a recessive 'b' behind the 'B'? If so, then half chocolate. If it's entirely black based (BB) then no chocolate at all, although all the kits will carry the recessive for chocolate.
(C) unless both parents carry a recessive 'c' for REW, all the kits will be colored
(D) unless both parents carry a recessive 'd' for dilute colors, all the kits will be densely colored (no lilacs, blues)
(E) unless the chocolate has a recessive 'e', all the kits will have non-extension colors (no fawns or torts)
(W) unless the chocolate has a 'w' recessive, no gold color, although all the kits will carry a 'w' recessive.
(En) One quarter Charlies (En/En)? One quarter broken (En/en)(English Spot)? One quarter unbroken (en/en)?

Broken (necessary for English Spot)
Charlie Marked - En En
Broken - En en (English Spot)
Normal Color - en en
*********************

Orange/Black Harlequin bred to a REW = (Black/Gold) A_ B_ C_ D_ ej_ W_ (no spots so 'en/en') x "_ _ cc _ _"
No telling on this one unless you have any idea of the colors hiding behind the albino whitewash on the REW.
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Re: Color genetics experimenting *First litter update*

Post Number:#5  Unread postby TeaTimeBunnies » Wed May 02, 2018 12:52 pm


My first experiment litter was born Friday!! Gold English Spot X Black orange harlequin!! Got 2 tri colors and 6 harlequins. Pictures for proof!!
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Re: Color genetics experimenting *First litter update*

Post Number:#6  Unread postby Zass » Wed May 02, 2018 2:05 pm


What you are doing there is probably the most fun thing in the world to me. :D Even with knowing how something should work out on paper, there is something enormously fascinating to watch those genes playing by the "rules" in real life as well.

I hope you keep us updated with your litters!!!
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Re: Color genetics experimenting

Post Number:#7  Unread postby akane » Wed May 02, 2018 2:07 pm


hotzcatz wrote:(E) Here's where it may get interesting. Anyone know if 'ej' is recessive to 'ee'? You could get fawns (ee) or you could get harlies (ej) depending on which is dominant. But since it's ej_ and ee, it will all be non-extension colors. (Fawns, harlies) if there's any 'a's in both parents, you could see torts.


"ej" is mostly dominant to "e" but eje will often result in a less ideal pattern for a harlequin. For general purposes outside show or breed standards it appears as a harli.

hotzcatz wrote:(W) the 'ww' seems required for the gold color in your English Spot, not the spots. Since we don't know if the Harle has the 'w' recessive, most likely you're gonna lose the gold color, but the kits will have the recessive for it.

ww is wideband with a few general effects that are most notably a solid belly in reds. Getting rid of it in my experience usually has minimal changes to the rest of the color and adding it has minimal shade changes beyond when it creates a solid bellied agouti so the "gold" in english spots is probably a specifically selected for shade of "red" or nonextension chocolate agouti (rarely has a name in other breeds) falling under the same name rather than only the effect of wideband. What exactly you would call the color of crosses is whatever you want because "gold" is only recognized in English Spot. Similar happens across breeds with the A* ee combo and results in the same genetics being referred to as different red, cream, fawn, orange, and more with overlap on which exact version of A* ee is called what per breed. A creme d'argent is supposedly AABBDDCCeeww but is white bellied, very pale cream coat with the heavy si silvering mixed into the already far lighter "red" coat than most breeds have even for dilute A*ee. That's why I mostly ignored any effect of ww in an English Spot cross and used the gold color name we were starting with for both a black or chocolate based A*ee with the modifiers from that breed. Unless you start using gene designations the whole A*ee group of colors is quite confusing to use specific color names across breeds.

hotzcatz wrote:(En) Since 'En' is a dominant gene and the Harlequin's color comes from the 'Japanese' gene (ej) and not the broken En gene, then your Harle would carry 'en/en' (solid) at this gene location. Which means you're gonna be mixing 'En/en' with 'en/en'. The results would be one quarter 'En/en' kits which would be your English spot?


ENen always results in 50% brokens. As does all genes with a single dominant and it's recessive paired together because that parent will contribute the 2 genes equal and the half with the dominant of the 2 will display that color or in this case white marked as broken. The harli should be ejej resulting in 100% harlequin making half eje harlis and half eje tris depending on if they get broken. However, since eje is still a harlequin if the harli parent has not been bred very specifically in a harli line for patterns you could be combining eje and ee instead resulting in 50/50 eje and ee rather than 100% eje. That would mean 50% are the A*ee on top of whatever other color since we don't know what the black/chocolate base is of the gold English Spot or some could be tort depending if self is present. Then a 50% chance of those ee versions being broken as well.
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