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Why does this doe always have broken kits?

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Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#1  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:40 am


So I have a broken red doe that I bought for breeding meat rabbits, her previous onwner said she was pure New Zealand. She is definitely not pure because she only weights 7lbs and throws rex furred kits when bred to my Beveren bucks and rex crosses whith out rex fur. But my question is why have I not got one solid kit from her? I thought if you breed broken to solid you get about 50/50? I bred her to my White Beveren buck twice both times I got a litter of 8 100% broken red. Then I bred her to my blue American buck, I got a litter of 9 100% broken gold-tipped steel. Recently I bred her to a Champagne D'Argent buck and the babies were just born. 7 of them and they are all broken!! It made sense to get broken whith the Beveren because of the Vienna gene. I thought maybe the broken from the American was a weird coincidence. But not one solid in 4 large litters?? :?
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#2  Unread postby alforddm » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:40 am


It's s possible she is a genetic charlie with enough color to look broken.

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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#3  Unread postby Nyctra » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:41 am


Either some weird luck, or she's actually a Charlie.
There's a certain form of Charlie (two broken genes) caused by Booted broken influence that is actually mistaken for normal broken a lot, I've noticed. I've also noticed booted seems to be pretty prevalent in Broken Red NZ's, so I'm gonna go ahead and guess she's this fleabitten sort I'm thinking of.
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#4  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:46 am


Nyctra, she looks exactly like the bunnies you have circled!! The same white feet, line on her face, and excessive scattered white hairs!! I think this uncovers the mystery!!
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#5  Unread postby akane » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:09 pm


It's entirely possible to have a double broken with 2 genes (charlie) that throws 100% brokens. They just tend to lack the markings required for show standards and sometimes, particularly certain breeds or lines it seems, are prone to digestive issues with consistent early deaths in some breedings so they aren't generally created. People still do it on purpose just to use them as a breeder for 100% broken litters off solids. The modifiers in broken can create a huge range of both single gene and double gene brokens so sometimes certain rabbits will throw regular brokens that are near solid white like charlies normally are and reverse. You find out when you breed them what they are when you do or don't get solids but it's not guaranteed since you can just have very weird odds and end up with a whole bunch of brokens from a normal broken to multiple solids. By dozens of kits without a solid it's likely though it's not actually a normal single gene broken.
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#6  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:31 pm


I have a picture of her on my laptop I will post it later. Something interesting I forgot to mention is that she has faint black spots on her face and ears. Does anyone know what that means?
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#7  Unread postby Maleficent » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:32 pm


Just going based off of my own kits born a few months ago, I have girls that look broken red but upon closer inspection they have the odd darker spot here and there. (Please forgive if i mention the wrong color still learning color genetics) Maybe she isn't a broken red? But a broken tort/ tri?

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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#8  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:27 pm


I know she is not a tort. I have wondered about her being a tri but she seems more red than orange. Here are some pictures of her and her babies. She just had a litter today, so not a good time to take new pictures.
2017-10-11 18.15.49.jpg
Hallie with her second litter by the Beveren buck
2017-10-11 18.15.49.jpg (491.47 KiB) Viewed 77 times

2017-10-11 18.15.41.jpg
Hallie and kit by the Beveren buck
2017-10-11 18.15.41.jpg (364.24 KiB) Viewed 77 times
2017-10-11 18.15.19.jpg
Yes, she is shy. Notice the rex furred kit.
2017-10-11 18.15.19.jpg (576.21 KiB) Viewed 77 times

2017-10-11 18.14.51.jpg
Hallie making sure I remembered my promise to keep Summer
2017-10-11 18.14.51.jpg (575.63 KiB) Viewed 77 times
2017-10-11 18.16.06.jpg
Hallie's bucks from her second litter with the Beveren buck
2017-10-11 18.16.06.jpg (524.58 KiB) Viewed 77 times


__________ Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:27 pm __________

2017-10-11 18.16.25.jpg
Meadow, the kit I kept from the American litter.
2017-10-11 18.16.25.jpg (426.59 KiB) Viewed 75 times
2017-10-11 18.16.17.jpg
Summer when she grew up
2017-10-11 18.16.17.jpg (482.92 KiB) Viewed 75 times
2017-10-11 18.15.58.jpg
The rex furred kits
2017-10-11 18.15.58.jpg (516.3 KiB) Viewed 75 times
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#9  Unread postby MeadowView » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:44 pm


It's just smut! Maybe that's not the right term for it - it just what we called it on our red mini satins. Basically just poor red color, it's normal and I've been told happens commonly when 'mixing' colors.

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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#10  Unread postby akane » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:18 pm


Torted tris are a complex issue to sort visually. I can tell you how the basic genetics should work but I can't recognize the weird variations that can exist versus just poorly marked other colors and what led to the term torted tri. Personally I never got into it in much detail because I didn't go ahead with the harlequin plan so the self vs agouti genes on a harlequin or tri never came up in real life. Tri is the harlequin/brindle gene with broken and tort is the nonextension gene on a self. The nonextension gene on an agouti makes red and it's equivalent agouti colors. They are related genes on the same location but a true red can never have a harlequin or tri producing gene because it requires only nonextension genes. Therefore, a true red should not have nor produce any tri spot markings unless bred to a harlequin gene carrier but smutty reds that are just smutty reds with poor color modifiers creating dark along the red also exist. Both genes react differently to self or agouti based colors though leading to the term torted tri or tort harlequin for a self color that didn't get the agouti gene because it looks something between a true agouti tri and a smutty red or other color variations of agouti instead. Steel is also in that group of genes and does weird things sometimes where it makes an agouti look like a self black that results in not knowing if you actually have a self black or a messed up steel. Reasons why that group of genes can be a pain when you get outside the simple full extension (normal color) and nonextension (red, orange, cream, fawn... and the torted selfs) pair into the harlequin, steel, and there is also an extra strong black gene in that same location but it's rare. https://gardenshedbunnies.weebly.com/br ... olors.html
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#11  Unread postby SableSteel » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:26 am


The dark on them just looks like smut. No tri or harlequin or stuff

With the beverens a few of those look like they could be vienna's without broken.
Even ignoring the beveren litter, the chance that she'll throw all broken if she is in fact a broken (and not charlie) is only 0.001526% (with 50% chance per kit).
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#12  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:02 pm


Thank you everyone for your replies! It really shouldn't be a big deal to me since we eat them, but I have always had a thing for colors :oops: I will post a picture of her new kits in a little while. I also found it interesting how she always has the same color babies in each litter, all reds with the Beveren and all gold-tipped steel with the American. I'm not sure what color this litter is yet but they are all the same.

__________ Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:02 pm __________

Here are kits. I'm thinking they are black and will silver a little but not quite as heavy as a Champagne. What do y'all think?
2017-10-12 12.59.48.jpg
2017-10-12 12.59.48.jpg (760.92 KiB) Viewed 28 times
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#13  Unread postby shazza » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:40 pm


i have some champagne/nz crosses and they silver like a silver fox. it's very pretty! i'm using my doe to experiment with the gene to see what will look nice for silver and breed those for pelts. she throws about 50/50 silver and normal kits. her kits don't silver as much as she is, but i hope to get a champagne buck to play with it more in the future. i bred her to a harlequin once and that was gorgeous. unfortunately the kit that silvered the most had the worst markings and wasn't a doe...so i kept the less silver but prettier daughter. i bet those brokens will be lovely!
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Re: Why does this doe always have broken kits?

Post Number:#14  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:45 pm


I had a doe once that was half Californian and half Champagne×Flemish and Silver Fox. She was silvered about as much as a silver fox, so that is kinda what I was expecting of these kits. I have a bad habit of keeping one doe from every meat litter......
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