rethinking since beginner's luck ran out

Advertise with us
Shop deals on ebay
shop deals on amazon
Rabbit Talk Forum

Help Support Rabbit Talk Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Rainey

Rainey

Well-known member
Rabbit Talk Supporter
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
988
Reaction score
13
Location
central New York
This is about meat mutts and about breeding schedule and selection for breeding so I put it here because I wasn't sure which of the other forums to use.
We're starting our 4th year raising rabbits for meat (on natural feed, no pellets). We were lucky the first year, litters from every breeding, only a couple kits lost. The next year we had 3 young does and while one was a failure, the other 2 did well. Last year we had figured out a breeding schedule starting in late winter to take advantage of lush spring growth--dandelions, willow, early grasses, etc. We had the 2 proven does and 2 younger ones and a young buck. We bred a doe every 2 weeks and had 6 litters that spring. Thought we had this down. Didn't keep the younger does since their first litters weren't as fast growing as their mother's first so we decided to keep the proven does and keep another couple promising young ones.
This year we only have 1 litter at a time when we'd expected to have 3. One of the proven does didn't kindle after her first breeding (made nest, pulled fur, no kits) and resisted rebreeding. One of the young does had a litter and lost it when she stopped eating days 4 and 5 after kindling. The other young doe is due Monday and has been haystaching.
Hindsight says we should have kept one or both of the young does from last year. Don't know what happened with Berwick--the experienced doe that failed to kindle--she was in good condition, looked ready to breed, is eating well and acting healthy.
The advice is confusing though. Keep more breeding stock than you think you'll need. Don't leave too long between breedings. Think ahead and don't breed more than you have room for grow-outs. I can't figure out how to make those all work at once. (Perhaps that's how rabbitosis starts?)
We also haven't followed the advice about breeding at least 2 does at a time so that you can foster unfed kits. Do those of you who do that find that a doe that can feed her litter of 8 can feed another similar size litter? What effect does that fostering have on the growth rate of both litters?
By this time last year things were already dry, but this year the pond and streams are full or flooded, the soil is pretty saturated (glad our garden is on a hill, drains well) So perhaps we'll breed through the summer and the forage will be easy to gather.
 
One thing I have learned is that does don't grow out their first litters as quickly as later ones if the litters are the same size and everything else is equal. I've seen studies that back this up by saying that milk production increases until around the 3rd litter and then levels off. So, now, I always try to wait until a doe is on her second litter to decide who to cull and who to keep.

I learned this the hardway after looking back over my litter records. I culled one doe that for sure I should have kept at least for one more litter.

Some does could possible feed their litter and another, however, IMO grow out size would suffer. The breeding two does at once goes farther in helping if one doe has a litter of 14 and the other has 6. You can foster some from the larger litter and possibly keep them all.
 
alforddm":13429zo5 said:
One thing I have learned is that does don't grow out their first litters as quickly as later ones if the litters are the same size and everything else is equal. I've seen studies that back this up by saying that milk production increases until around the 3rd litter and then levels off. So, now, I always try to wait until a doe is on her second litter to decide who to cull and who to keep..
Click to expand...

I had assumed that rabbit does, like our goats, would produce less milk the first time they gave birth. So I was comparing the first litter growth rate of the first timers with their mother's first litter. Still should have kept at least one of them. Sold them to someone else just starting and wanting to feed without pellets.
 
Sorry, I missed that you were comparing first litter data from the dam. It doesn't sound like you could have done much differently, just had a run of bad luck.

Keep more breeding stock than you think you'll need. Don't leave too long between breedings. Think ahead and don't breed more than you have room for grow-outs. I can't figure out how to make those all work at once.
Click to expand...

Maybe you just need more grow out cages so you can bred a bit more frequently? I know feeding forage makes things more time consuming. I fed my bunch two packed 5gal buckets of foraged items yesterday and it only reduced the pellets I fed today by 1/2 today. I try to feed at least 1 bucket per day but it takes a good while to gather.

I'm sorry I'm not being very help but at least I'm bumping your post :cool:
 
A few things I have experienced:

- I exclude first kindles when making "who to keep" decisions;
- second and third litters grow out faster and are usually larger than first ones;
- I breed two does at once, and have fostered. The grow out rates while nursing are slowed of course, but once weaned, the kits tend to catch up fast.
- forage/natural fed kits grow out more slowly. My best grow outs come from good pellets, some oats almost daily, and alfalfa cubes.
- having a set rabbit limit helps me focus and be more rational with my keep decisions. I will not have more than six breeders. Nope. Not happening.
 
Try a different buck. You may find some success in that. It was a help for me. I experienced some of the same issues. The doe that was hit or miss with low birth rate, just had ten from new buck. Sometimes that is the issue. Whoever said raising rabbits was easy, missed the troubles many of us have worked through. I am still new to this, but find I spend more and more time working on things like this.

Now I have a good problem of 18 grow outs from two liters. I have re-breed them as well to see how they do this next time.
 
TheChad":3qym1sov said:
Try a different buck. You may find some success in that. It was a help for me. I experienced some of the same issues. The doe that was hit or miss with low birth rate, just had ten from new buck. Sometimes that is the issue. Whoever said raising rabbits was easy, missed the troubles many of us have worked through. I am still new to this, but find I spend more and more time working on things like this.

Now I have a good problem of 18 grow outs from two liters. I have re-breed them as well to see how they do this next time.
Click to expand...

The buck is the same one we used last year when everything went according to plan. Weren't sure how he'd do since he was just 7 months when we first used him. So I don't think it's him.

And Marinea (sorry, can't think how to quote from 2 different posts at once) I know grow out time is longer on forage and grain and hay than pellets, but we've chosen this way of feeding for other reasons. And we're hoping that over time, as we keep the rabbits that do well on the feed we give that our rate of growth will improve. We were quite pleased with how it all worked last year. But definitely off to a bad start in 2017. :(
 
I get ya on the forage. I am trying to incorporate more into my feeding.

*Fingers crossed things turn around for you*
 
It gets complicated, doesn't it? I'm inclined to think you've just hit a bump in the road -- bad luck. More growout space would likely be a good idea.

I always bred does to kindle in spring, up until about the middle of June. The last half of June and July are our hottest times and while I didn't mind having kits in the nestbox then or growouts, I preferred that my does did not kindle during those six weeks of extreme heat and humidity. By August, at least the nights are a bit cooler.

When my rabbits were in cages, I did not breed for does to kindle much after the beginning of December. Too much chance of losing whole litters die to chilling. When I switched to a colony with nest tunnels, I found I could breed all winter with few losses and even during the June/July heat. We did use a box fan on really hot days.

One thing I wanted to suggest to make high-protein forage easier to collect is to plant an alfalfa or alfalfa/red clover/timothy patch. You should be able to buy seed at the feed store in smallish quantities. We did this years ago and the patch produced very well for seven or eight years with no attention. The clover diminished first but the others kept coming for a long while after that. We were particularly glad of it when the glut of good wild forage tapers off with the hot and/or dry weather. I'm not sure I'd bother with the timothy if I were to do this again, although it did provide lots of long stem fibre and it was very quick to gather.

I know this doesn't cover all your questions, but on selection of breeders I really can't give you much help. I know I made some mistakes choosing does, but I think these are more noticeable in a small rabbitry because even one non-productive doe really pulls down your average.
 
MaggieJ":2t6d08jm said:
It gets complicated, doesn't it? I'm inclined to think you've just hit a bump in the road -- bad luck. More growout space would likely be a good idea.

We have enough growout cages for all the litters we plan to breed. But if some does miss or some litters die in the first week, the solution would be to breed for more litter than we want. But then if we have no failures we have all those extra rabbits. It's not just the space, but also the forage gathering, freezer space, trying to sell what we don't need or want ourselves. Need to look at those factors and decide whether we want to breed for more than we want or make do with what we get or . . .?

I always bred does to kindle in spring, up until about the middle of June. The last half of June and July are our hottest times and while I didn't mind having kits in the nestbox then or growouts, I preferred that my does did not kindle during those six weeks of extreme heat and humidity. By August, at least the nights are a bit cooler.

Last year we bred in spring, took a break and bred the 2 proven does again late summer/early fall and it worked really well for us. Winter breeding is problematic because of the water issue. The adults do fine with their water crocks changed twice a day (and I think the wheat fodder also provide moisture) But I would be concerned about a doe still nursing kits when the water was freezing

When my rabbits were in cages, I did not breed for does to kindle much after the beginning of December. Too much chance of losing whole litters die to chilling. When I switched to a colony with nest tunnels, I found I could breed all winter with few losses and even during the June/July heat. We did use a box fan on really hot days.

One thing I wanted to suggest to make high-protein forage easier to collect is to plant an alfalfa or alfalfa/red clover/timothy patch. You should be able to buy seed at the feed store in smallish quantities. We did this years ago and the patch produced very well for seven or eight years with no attention. The clover diminished first but the others kept coming for a long while after that. We were particularly glad of it when the glut of good wild forage tapers off with the hot and/or dry weather. I'm not sure I'd bother with the timothy if I were to do this again, although it did provide lots of long stem fibre and it was very quick to gather.

We tried a couple times to plant alfalfa as a cover crop on garden beds that would be empty for a season. Never very successful, limited germination. Don't know what the issue is. We do grow a couple different clovers as cover crops and cut them for rabbits. Also have a bed planted to forage chicory, developed to grow as pasture, and that is doing well. And last year we planted dino kale (a suggestion from Michaels4gardens) and fed that mid-summer through fall. And just noticed a nice stand of stinging nettle while on a walk this week. Keeping an eye on that and will cut some if the weather ever clears/dries for a day. /color]

I know this doesn't cover all your questions, but on selection of breeders I really can't give you much help. I know I made some mistakes choosing does, but I think these are more noticeable in a small rabbitry because even one non-productive doe really pulls down your average.
Click to expand...


Thanks for all your help ever since we first found RT. You've made this adventure much easier and saved us from various mistakes.
 
It seems odd that alfalfa grows so well here and not so well where you are, Rainey, since you are (I believe) less than 100 miles from us as the crow flies. But I've heard other members say the same thing. It may have to do with soil acidity. Our bedrock here is limestone and it is close to the surface thanks to the glaciers. :roll:

Another thread reminded me about Common Mallow (Malva sylvestris) -- another ubiquitous and nutritious forage plant. (All the Malva species are useful.) It grows so fast and can be fed as a cut and come again plant all season, except when it sometimes gets rust in late August.
 
MaggieJ":91vezh56 said:
It seems odd that alfalfa grows so well here and not so well where you are, Rainey, since you are (I believe) less than 100 miles from us as the crow flies. But I've heard other members say the same thing. It may have to do with soil acidity. Our bedrock here is limestone and it is close to the surface thanks to the glaciers. :roll:

That would explain it--our soil tends to be acidic

Another thread reminded me about Common Mallow (Malva sylvestris) -- another ubiquitous and nutritious forage plant. (All the Malva species are useful.) It grows so fast and can be fed as a cut and come again plant all season, except when it sometimes gets rust in late August.
Click to expand...

We have musk mallow (Malva moschata) growing wild and it is one of the things that goes into the forage mix in summer. Also grow marsh mallow to use the roots in tea for coughs and cut some from the tops for rabbit feed when I'm in a hurry along with dill, parsley, oregano etc from the herb garden.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top