mysterious circumstances? kinda urgent

this morning i had to put down a growout. this kit had been doing fine yesterday and last night, and this morning we go out and it's thrashing around on its site/back in its cage. the symptoms were similar to a kit i had to euthanize last year, so i was wondering if anyone knew what was going on and how to prevent these seemingly random deaths.


Kit #1: NZ mutt, given to me by a friend of a friend who wanted to get out of rabbits. it was about 6 weeks old. it was the middle of july and i had lost its two siblings to heat, despite my best efforts, so i brought this last one inside. she was happy, healthy, eating, drinking, running around and playing that morning. at around 3am that night my husband woke me up because the kit was thrashing and screaming in her cage. she appeared to be gasping for breath, unable to stand, head pulled back as far as it could go. necropsy revealed nothing out of the ordinary.

Kit #2: mini lop/a&m mutt. about 7 weeks old. had developed splay leg around weaning, and was given special treatment for this. he had broken off a toe earlier in the week from catching it on something and was being treated by cleaning with betadine, wrapping the leg, and pen-g injections. he was responding to treatment and the injury was healing well. he was eating, drinking, "running around" (as best he could with splay leg and one foot wrapped up.) it got kinda cool last night and i gave him a box full of hay in his cage if he wanted to snuggle up. this morning we found him laying on his side, thrashing, head as far back as it would go. he wasn't screaming, or gasping for air. looked a lot similar to a heat stroke but it was in the 50s last night and he is in the shade. i felt along his spine and felt what could have been an injury. no necropsy yet but i don't expect to find anything out of the ordinary outside of that possible injury.



freak accidents or something else going on? all of my other 20-something growouts are healthy and fat, not injuring themselves and growing rapidly as they should.

-- Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:56 am --

update. found another kit in the growout colony that had no balance and a third that looked lethargic. both also had very poopy butts. i quarantined them both but they don't seem interested in eating or drinking. all the other rabbits in that pen look fine. e. cuniculi or something else? what can i do to prevent​ this is my remaining healthy​ kits? i have nowhere else to put these rabbits as the colony pen was our solution to save space on housing for our growouts that we intend to eat as we don't have a lot of space for cages. if it's a problem with something in the ground i'm basically royally screwed i guess. i raised two other litters in the pen with absolutely no problems, and now suddenly i've lost two kits, now maybe four, in a couple of days. one, however, was unrelated to this issue - he had an infected foot that i didn't see and developed sepsis. additionally - some of the kits in this pen are also rabbits that i intend to keep as breeders. i was letting them grow with their siblings which i get their cages ready, and for the companionship while they still enjoy that sort of thing. i would very much like to not lose these rabbits or potentially have problems with their kits down the line.

a few things to note though are that last week we had some heavy rains and that pen can get pretty muddy. i typically lay hay down and it helps keep them from being too dirty, but right before one rain i noticed my hay had gone mouldy and i removed it. they had maybe 10 minutes of time with the mouldy hay before removal. they had a full day or so in the muddy pen with no hay until i could buy more. from what i've read though mould toxins cause liver failure, not balance problems. i also regularly put AVC in their water. worth noting though i guess.

i will likely treat the rabbits with fenbendazole just as a precaution. i have access to a variety of different methods - medicated pellets, paste, and powder. it would not be difficult to separate each rabbit with a bowl of pellets (i would put a few medicated ones in a bowl of their normal pellets and let them finish the bowl.) the paste is for horses and i know dosages can be difficult, plus i wouldn't be able to use the majority of the tube so if it spoils it'd be a waste of money. the powder is formulated for dogs (so easier to dose,) and i could just mix it with water and syringe it into every rabbit's mouth. i'm leaning towards either the pellets or powder as it'd be easiest to administer the right dosage. if there's a preferred method please let me know though!

Did the pen have a lot of weeds and grass in it when you started it? They could've overfed on those while they aren't used to that food and gotten an upset stomac from it. Also maybe there just happened to be some sort of parasites in that dirt?

the area they are in never had much grass, and what little was there was eaten down by the growouts before them. there is just hay and dirt now. i have never had issues with rabbits being on the ground in my yard before, but i'm not totally putting parasites out. i've noticed that all the ones that develop balance problems/wry neck have been from the youngest litters in there. they are about eight or nine weeks old. i suspect they had been immunosupressed from being freshly weaned and then it rained and got everything gross and muddy. i wouldn't be surprised if they simply just couldn't battle off anything nasty that developed during that time.

found another kit doing loops that was hiding in a shade structure. that makes four total so far. i went buy some fenbendazole liquid suspension and dosed every growout in the pen + the three in quarantine. i'm pretty confident i'll lose one of the quarantine rabbits but the other two are maybes. so sad, they look so miserable i can't really find any definitive prognosis once loss of balance is achieved, would it be better to just put them all down or is there a chance they may recover?

Wet weather in spring seems to bring on problems from the rain and chilly temperatures combined. I think perhaps some of the problem is related to the muddy conditions. I recommend putting something down over the ground in their run, as Dood suggested. Making shallow drainage trenches to lead the water away would also help. We have a similar wet spot and done the ditches -- just a few inches deep -- and it did help. That said, I strongly suggest making a permanent fix as soon as you can.

The problems have some of the symptoms of wry neck/e. cuniculi. I've heard good things about this site for treating it.
http://barbibrownsbunnies.com/wryneck/
I would not keep any of the affected rabbits as breeders, even if they do recover. The strength of their immune systems would always be in question.

Sorry if I sound rather negative. I don't mean to, but I suspect you will continue to have these problems seasonally unless you make changes to the pen.

we do plan to raise the ground back there, just haven't been able to do it yet. we've been incredibly busy with moving in a roommate and both he and my husband having been absolutely slammed with deadlines at work. they're actually at the office now, on a sunday, because of it. we haven't been able to sit down and formulate a plan of action. fortunately it hasn't rained again so the ground has dried up, but the forecast is for more rain (thanks texas!) later this week so i guess i get to take a trip to home depot and do it all myself. it's never cold here, but we did actually have a cool snap where the temps dropped from the 80s to the 60s in a few hours, so that probably didn't help the whole situation.



thankfully so far none of the other rabbits are showing any signs (even early ones such as lack of hind end control.) the ones i had intended to keep as breeders are among these seemingly unaffected. i will likely move those particular rabbits to another area so they have less of a chance of infection.


as for the affected rabbits, i had to euthanize another one of them, one is iffy, the other at least can still stand up on its own. i tried to syringe them some electrolytes and probiotics, but it seems they are completely unable to swallow. the liquid just dribbled out of their mouths and they made no effort to ingest it. there is food water and hay in their cage but neither seem interested in trying to eat or drink. not much i can do, i guess.

-- Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:28 pm --

husband and roommate came home, they are going to just build a big raised pen out of scrap wood for them all so that i can take them out and bleach the bottom every day and get them off of the ground. since this is our second to last "round" of litters this year and we plan on moving at some point this summer/fall i don't think we'll worry much about raising the ground unless for some reason we end up staying here. it should be big enough to hold them all until they're butcher size.

the ones in quarantine are looking marginally better. one was unable to stand and is now sitting up and seems to be trying to eat some hay. fingers crossed.

If you're planning to move so soon and are near the end of your breeding season, I think I would just do a make-do fix and hope for dryer weather. I haven't been on RT so much lately (I look in but haven't had time to read thoroughly) so did not realize your problem was temporary until you move.

I had my colony in a shed on wood floor for several years and had no issues with diseases such as cocci or e. cuniculi. I had them on deep litter, wood shavings to start augmented by wasted hay stems. (Alfalfa hay they ate mainly the leafy parts and scattered the rest, but it is cheap here.) Shovelled the whole thing out about four times a year and started fresh.

I realize that we are fortunate not having as many parasite issues due to our cold winters, but I don't think regular bleaching of wood should be needed. As far as cocci, household ammonia works far better than bleach. I guess my point is that it seems from what I read that having rabbits on the ground is more problematic than having them on a wood floor. Just my feelings from what I have read here over the years.

If other people have had different experiences, please chime in and tell us. I know there are MANY members who have had far more experience with rabbits than I've had.

yeah, i was going to just build up the ground but they came home and we discussed it and decided it would be better for disease prevention and eradication if we just built a quick hutch and get them off the ground completely, so that's the plan. the frame is built, i just need to put the wire on it and put the rabbits in there. i don't know if i ever mentioned we were planning to move, so don't feel bad on that one lol. it will have a wire floor and i know it's probably overkill to clean it daily but the bodies keep piling up and i'm paranoid now.

i knew that colonies were a bit more trouble when we started but we wanted that more natural life for the ones we were going to eat, plus it was save us on limited space. our first litters back there did so well, we never really imagined that it would go quite so dramatically south as this. i was thinking if anything we'd get worms, not an e. cuniculi outbreak that wiped out half the colony in a day. live and learn, i guess.

death count is up to seven eleven now. so far once they start rolling it's only hours before they start the seizures and die, so i'm just going to start euthanizing any as soon as i notice them. it still holds that only the youngest kits are affected; i'm expecting to lose most of not all of those. the older ones maybe have a better immune system and were able to fight it off, guess we'll see.

Yeah, much as I liked having a colony instead of individual cages, it's a sure thing that if a communicable disease gets in there, it tends to go right through the population and takes all but the strongest.

If you want to do something similar at your new place, I think it would be best to keep them off the ground or line the floor with patio stones or pavers. They provide good drainage and can be hosed off when needed. Even better if they are set at a slight angle so the rain runs off quickly.

I badly wanted an outdoor colony, but funds did not allow a predator proof enclosure. In retrospect, the colony-in-a-shed worked very well in our climate. I still had to troubleshoot, but we had almost no illness. Keeping a closed herd helps tremendously if you can do it. Nothing comes in and anything going out is on a one-way ticket.

Hope all goes well in your new place. :good-luck:

thanks! the plan when we move is definitely to have growouts off the ground in large hutches like we're building now, or very large cages in groups of four or five. anywhere but the ground ;P it's disappointing because they won't be able to dig anymore, but it's a small price to pay for them not dying horribly.


so far still no signs of illness in the ten week olds. i only have a few seven weekers left but two or three already are looking lethargic so i feel by this afternoon i'll only have my older rabbits. and i can't even eat them because i gave them all panacur yesterday, ugh. anyone want some very small rabbit pelts in gold steel and chestnut? i'm about to have a lot

-- Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:09 pm --

update, 3:04 pm

so far no more deaths. it's hot outside so everyone is kinda lethargic looking but when i bother them they get up and hop around like normal so fingers crossed. i lost all but maybe five of my youngest kits, none of the older ones. the pen is nearly built and i will give them all another panacur dose before putting them into it, and then again for a total of six days, according to what i've seen online as a preventative. then i'll go out and bleach their waterers and feeder real good. hopefully the worst of it is over and we can bounce back fairly quickly.

now i'm sunburnt and exhausted. dern rabbits.

If you were in Australian I would say this could be rabbit haemorrhagic disease. The head pull back is the classic death pose.

Have you check the livers?

not yet, i've just put all the bodies in the a bag in the freezer to deal with later. the 'sudden death' "symptom" sounds similar, though none of them had any bleeding, fever, or other symptoms. then again, it almost doesn't feel much like e. cuniculi either as it's hitting very hard and suddenly, and from what i understand that's more of a slow burn disease? but there is a definitely wry neck, and seizures are generally final cause of death (though i've been euthanizing them as soon as they start rolling because i know it's only a matter of hours before they're really in pain.)


for future posterity, the symptoms as i'm seeing them:

- rabbit seems a bit "off", slightly lethargic and slow to eat/drink/move with the herd
- a few hours (3-6) after noticing "off" status of rabbit, rabbit is usually found laying on its side. when propped up, rabbit's head cocks to one side and it begins to roll and struggle to stand. some have had runny poop on their butt/legs at this point, but not all.
- 2-3 hours after rabbit loses balance, rabbit begins violent seizures. Body temperature is very low at this point, rabbit feels cold to the touch.
- within minutes or a maximum of two hours after seizures begin, rabbit is dead.

no breathing difficulties noticed, outside of some heavy breathing after a seizure. some rabbits will drool after seizing, but no discharge from the nose. i have noticed that in rabbits in the "rolling" stage that they seem unable or at least very unwilling to eat or drink. attempts at medication and electrolyte supplementation did not work as they refused to swallow. I have not noticed any eye issues that seem common with e. cuniculi.


so far the older rabbits are still unaffected. i am down to only one young kit that seems fine (total of 15 losses,) though i honestly don't expect him to make it just because nobody else did. panacur doses will continue for a total of 6 days (on day 3 now.)

in the interest of getting some use out of them, i plan to skin out all the kits and use their pelts for something. i'll cut one open and see what i can find, but i may bring a whole body to a vet near me to see if there's anything they can tell me, since whatever is going on doesn't seem quite like e.c. and i'd like to know. i only have one exotic vet near me and i'm not crazy about them, but maybe their lab will be better than their doctors.

You might find some useful info in these links. I pulled them from the "stickies" in the Illnesses, Injuries and Parasites forum

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/exotic-an ... of-rabbits

various-rabbit-diseases-graphic-t14782.html

the last kit hung on for quite a while and it almost looked like he'd make it, but i just found him down and rolling. sixteen deaths. all of my youngest weaned kits are gone.

and as usual, all the older rabbits are behaving as normal, though i'm paranoid they'll start dropping in a few days too. i can only hope not :/

there are only two kits from the older batch that haven't been exposed, and i was hoping one would be a buck and one would be a doe as they are both rex/harlequin crosses that i was hoping to use to introduce magpie into my rexes, but unfortunately they're both does. if i lose all of my older kits, who knows when i'll be able to continue this project that i was extremely excited for.

It sounds like coccidia to me. Their are many different strains and some are very aggressive especially with the younger rabbits. Your older rabbits probably carry it but have built up an immunity. I have found when I let my chicken coop get wet I will loose everyone of my young chicks overnight. I finally had a vet laboratory confirm it was cocci. Albon would be the drug of choice but it requires a perscription. You could get them on Corid asap though. I have never used corrid on rabbits so i would only use it on the ones showing symptoms. I have used it on several different types of birds and mammals and they have all responded well. I would use ivermectin for an anti parasite. I find it is much more effective and the rabbits tolerate it very well. Both can be purchased relatively cheaply but be careful because some brand are expensive.
Also, I am very sorry for your loss. It is heart breaking to loose so many. I hope you are able to pin point what it is soon and you don't loose anymore.

finally got around to doing a necropsy today. nothing seemed out of the ordinary at all. i butchered two kits (the rest are still defrosting,) and one had a pale-ish liver but no ulcers or reticulation or anything of that nature. just a bit pale. the second kit had a totally normal liver and organs. i'm going to butcher the rest out for their pelts and keep one whole and frozen to bring to a vet's for testing. so frustrating, nothing seems to line up 100% to anything


still no sign of illness in older rabbits. someone donated several cases of leeks to me so all the remaining colony rabbits were given leek tops as a treat and treatment in case of coccidia. so far no signs of illness. everyone is thriving.

Did you check the intestine?

i didn't cut the intestines open, but they looked normal from the outside. everything looked normal except the one had a slightly pale liver - no ulcers or reticulation. when the others defrost i will be checking them all out too. the two i did just now were some of the first to die, so maybe the last few will have more answers. <br /><br /> -- Tue May 02, 2017 6:56 pm -- <br /><br /> skinned five more, the only ones that had defrosted enough. again, outside of the bellies going green, the innards look normal. normal livers, normal intestines, normal lungs, heart, etc.

does anyone know how long it takes fenbendazole to leave the rabbits' systems? some of mine are butcher size now but of course we want them to be safe when we do, since they're for eating. the bottle i used was liquid goat dewormer, and it says 6 weeks before butchering, but i'm guessing the smaller the animal the quicker it goes through?

I might have an idea. Could be wrong but it sounds like something I had a while back with guinea pigs.

I had a case that might have been similar. I bought a new rabbit once and after 5 or 6 weeks of thriving I found it collapsed, in shock, head tilted back. It could have been doing the kicking thing but I didn't see it. I didn't do a necropsy but I assumed it could have been cocci. It was thankfully still in quarantine so I never had a problem with my others. I assumed it was cocci as I bought a replacement from the same breeder and it got stomach issues that cleared up when treated for cocci.

but on to my idea. When I had guinea pigs I had what I call the "plague". I had bought a new one, and because I didn't know a lot about quarantine I only did that for a week before it went with the others. Everything was fine for a couple months. Then, I found one of my others dead. Thought it must have been the scurvy I had been treating it for. Then, the one I had bought suddenly collapsed, was breathing hard, and died after a few hours. Now I was worried. A few days later, another was lethargic, and didn't want to eat. It was dead the next morning. 2 left, in separate cages. I cleaned everything. A week later, one of them got a head tilt and walked in circles. A few hours later it collapsed and had seizures for an hour then died. Last one was fine for a month, then started breathing heavy, and was lethargic. Dead the next day.
My friend then had the same thing. She had a colony of rabbits and guinea pigs, never had contact with mine. Hers started started dying. They would get lethargic and she said they "couldn't breathe". Others just died suddenly.
I didn't know about doing a necropsy so no help there.

She found out that rats were getting into her cage. My guess then was that the guinea pig I bought was exposed to whatever the rats had. Mine always had a range of symptoms, or sudden death. No diarrhea so I don't think cocci. And in my country we don't have myxomatosis or VHD.

i butchered the oldest rabbits this weekend - they were all very healthy with normal organs. i did pull this liver out of one though -



you can see a reticulated pattern on it, very faintly. there was no mottling of lungs or discharge or heart abnormalities. most of the other livers looked fine, if maybe a tad pale.

this is so mysterious. i am going on vacation next week so i'm saving all my spare cash for that, but when i get home i'll get one of the dead kits to a vet and see about some answers. this is driving me mad.

No real answers for you, but I wonder if the appearance of the liver might have been affected by freezing it.