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New animal "protection" laws...

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New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#1  Unread postby Preitler » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:39 pm


So, our ARAs had a new idea, ban all private online selling of animals. Since the public only get's to hear about such stuff when it's already decided there isn't much to do. I tried to find any site for discussion, but those fanatics avoid it.

WTF???

I've seen many thousands of ads, and not ONE that looked fishy. It's the way breeders find others, pets that are overwhelming their owners find new homes, many thousends of that, what I would call a good thing.

Sure, there are some eastern european puppy mills that sell - already illegaly anyway, - via internet (or just out of the trunk of their cars), but why destroy the whole lokal small animal exchange? If a medicine doesn't work, just ramp up the dose until the patient is dead - Problem solved?
In times past there were newspapers with ads, they don't exist anymore, no way to drop back to this. Taking rabbits to a market- I add a picture of the only one around here, that's a disaster waiting to happen since nobody here has any idea about quarantine procedures.

I sold about half of my kits, that about payed for the food.

So, breeders will not find good livestock, pets will not find new homes (I don't know of any shelters who take in rabbits (not to mention piggies and smaller critters), they are already overwhelmed with cats and dogs), AND that's THEIR idea of animal welfare? Kill and exterminate them all, so you can sleep better knowing that no animal suffers? Oh, they will suffer, but all is ok as long as you don't see it while squatting before your screen???
How can people evolve such a negative view of live, of all those symbiosises, and joy, without man wouldnt be? Who gives those lunatics the right to decide over what other people do, and what live is worth to be tolerated to be lived.


I'm so angry, I need to focus on other stuff for a while...
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#2  Unread postby SableSteel » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:46 pm


You see that facebook banned selling animals?

Those are cute birds by the way
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#3  Unread postby Winterwolf » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:33 am


SableSteel wrote:You see that facebook banned selling animals?


:shock: When? I belong to at least a dozen animal sale groups on Facebook. Will those groups get deleted?
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#4  Unread postby SarniaTricia » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:05 am


There was an issue in Nashville lately with a family loosing their Urban livestock..... Media made it sound like this family was abusing these animals!

I don't know all the details.... but sounds like they were raising chicken, quail and rabbits for food. The article made it sound like 350 animals was a hording # and that the animals were kept in an incorrect way! I have at least 50 rabbits and I could hatch 150 quail in one hatching easy!!
Many people I know easily have 30 breeding animals .... the number of animals can easily triple at breeding!

The biggest thing that got me, was that the organization that "rescued" aka "stole" this family's animals is not accountable to anyone... they don't have to document, report or answer to anyone!!

THIS is what happens when government gets involved with food!! (Like outlawing people gardening on their own property!) The media doesn't help!
If someone came in my barn the day before my weekly clean-up, I'd be very embarrassed at the mess!

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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#5  Unread postby Preitler » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:57 am


SableSteel wrote:You see that facebook banned selling animals?




Facebook? Oh. I've heard of that, was in fashion for some time, my parents used it to find relatives in the US...
Anyway, it's a private website, they can set up any rules they want, who cares, didn't even know there are classifieds there, and I don't know of anyone here using that.

No problem with that. But with people making laws who have no clue of what they are doing, and just listen to peoople with agendas that have nothing to do with what is good for the people - or animals. Sure, there may be some rotten apples among those who sell animals, but they didn't care about laws now, and they will do what they want in the future. Hey, that actually is good for illegal buissnes. The only ones that get hit are normal, law abiding people.


And this is a step by step tactic by the fanactics, they will never stop. Their goal isn't really to make something better, but to force people to do what they think is right, no matter how screwed, naive shortsighted and dumb their ideology is.
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#6  Unread postby FourRingCircus » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:13 am


The media does not help - AT.ALL. I try to read each article, no matter what the content, with a grain of salt. They are out for a story, and even if there isn't one, they will make sure the small details get blown out of proportion to get it... then another site gets ahold of it and further inflates things for their spin. Ugh. When our small, country church was vandalized and set on fire last year it was both comical and maddening to see what they were reporting on, and it's not like there was a lot of information to mess up! And the son of one of our members was killed in an accident - was he an upstanding citizen? Not really, but they pulled out any dirt they could find on the poor kid, relevant or not, just to make a story. Zero respect for someone that had died.

Anyway, it makes me nervous how much control government entities are gaining over personal property. I know in the US you don't own anything. Nothing. No matter what it is, they can come and take it because you always have taxes to pay on personal property, or because you fail to pay another debt (student loans are scary in that there is no way out of them, often times not even death). Way back when you could own things out right - the term allodium in the 1828 dictionary has a far different definition than in present day books - even going as far as not being listed in a number of them (or it's a goose chase to find it. Funny, even now I am looking at what I typed and it's underlined in red b/c it's no recognized as a word). Animals? One complaint and they could be gone - justified or not. Children, sadly, are the same way (not that they are "personal property," but it's good demonstration of big gov't not weighing the facts before making knee jerk decisions with HUGE consequences). There are a lot of AR groups essentially stealing animals and making a quick buck, I am afraid child services are starting to do the same with children. A lady in one town successfully banned solar farms b/c they were "depleating natural resources" from the living things around them citing brown plants in and around the panels (you can do a search - Woodland, NC... it's almost comical, in a sad way). Stories of people being banned from growing anything edible are all around - inedible? Fine. But if you can eat it, it can't be in your front yard. Banning the sales of raw milk. Now seed sharing is becoming an issue as well. Both over safety concerns for the consumer. Raw milk hasn't been pasteurized so it can contain some nasty stuff, sure, but it's also really good for you! Nope. Not allowed anymore. You might get sick, so "we're" going to "protect" you - no option for you to make your own personal decision. Seed sales/trading - they might be diseased, or not what the person claims they are, or too old to germinate, or or or or... whatever. You might get the short end of the stick, so we're going to "protect" you by banning any private trading. Solves that problem, eh?

And the list goes on.

I'm sorry, Preitler :( I hope there is a loophole out there, somewhere, that can help get things back on track for the average person. I don't sell many rabbits, but it's nice to have the option every now and then for a few extra bucks here and there. Again, the minority has ruined it for the majority.
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#7  Unread postby SarniaTricia » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:12 pm


FourRingCircus
I can't agree with you more.... not a wonder there are all those bug crazy preppers...

A year or so back there was a small farm (can't remember all the details) except someone in their government system took exception to his way of life or was being paid by big food industry... (he was very careful to follow all the rules) and started a systematic harassment of his farm and family... needless to say the stress of being periodically RAIDED... yes, like drug RAID... was too much for him and his family....he closed up shop and stopped producing for off farm and last I heard has sold everything and moved...... big win for industrial food industry. Sad for his community... the likeminded folk close to him responded by coming to meetings with sheriff, held vigils, wrote to local politicians... crying shame government agency can get away with this crap.

Sad, because this guy was a vet, who came home to do what he loved! Was making a living at raising a unique and quality product. Someone didn't like the fact a small farm was making money and managed to get the right government agency involved... bam... broke it.
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#8  Unread postby SableSteel » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:45 pm


Winterwolf wrote:
SableSteel wrote:You see that facebook banned selling animals?


:shock: When? I belong to at least a dozen animal sale groups on Facebook. Will those groups get deleted?


2015 or 2016, but they don't do anything unless its specifically reported, so most facebook groups (especially closed groups) are pretty safe. Even then, the one time I saw them actually do anything they just took down the ad.

It's #5 on this list: https://www.facebook.com/policies/commerce
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#9  Unread postby Zass » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:56 pm


SableSteel wrote:
Winterwolf wrote:
SableSteel wrote:You see that facebook banned selling animals?


:shock: When? I belong to at least a dozen animal sale groups on Facebook. Will those groups get deleted?


2015 or 2016, but they don't do anything unless its specifically reported, so most facebook groups (especially closed groups) are pretty safe. Even then, the one time I saw them actually do anything they just took down the ad.

It's #5 on this list: https://www.facebook.com/policies/commerce


Yeah, someone was posting that in one of my rabbit groups. The mods banned them for trying to tell me I had to take a rabbit ad down. :lol:
What I don't understand is that I'm in a bunch of Livestock or pet SALE groups. I mean, with sale right in the name, and Facebook could care less. The person trying to get us to stop selling rabbits certainly didn't manage to get the group in any trouble. :?

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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#10  Unread postby FourRingCircus » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:55 pm


Zass wrote:What I don't understand is that I'm in a bunch of Livestock or pet SALE groups. I mean, with sale right in the name, and Facebook could care less. The person trying to get us to stop selling rabbits certainly didn't manage to get the group in any trouble. :?


I wonder if part of it is to be PC about it all with the way things are going, but also to have a way out of liability if anything were to come up later (someone trying to blame FB for buying a sick animal or something like that). They don't really care if you do or don't, they just don't want to be in the middle of it.
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#11  Unread postby Prisma » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:47 pm


The option to report a post because it is selling an animal is brand new. It litterally just started being available over the last 3 or so days. I'm on a number of different groups. I've left my group posts up but those on my rabbitry page I've pulled. I would hate to lose my page over a report for selling so its just easier to say contact for availability or list "news" on website listing instead.
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#12  Unread postby Winterwolf » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:35 am


Prisma wrote:I've left my group posts up but those on my rabbitry page I've pulled. I would hate to lose my page over a report for selling so its just easier to say contact for availability or list "news" on website listing instead.


That's a good idea. I guess I'll start doing that as well. It's really annoying, though, because FaceBook is the best place to advertise around here. Actually, where I live, its pretty much the only way to advertise rabbit sales.
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#13  Unread postby Nika » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:24 am


Wow, Preitler, hopefully this won`t come to us :shock:

Ww do have a craigslits of some sort and there is no problem with livestock section, for now I guess. We also have a few livestock sanctuaries, one especially for rabbits ;)

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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#14  Unread postby akane » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:01 am


I had to comment on a reptile forum post about 200 snakes found neglected to death which takes a long time to starve a snake. People were commenting about increasing penalties and laws and I pointed out the situation that mammals are rapidly getting into as well as the comments made to the news article about how no one should have any of those snakes and all should be outright banned. You open up the door for those people and it won't fully close. For every reported incident there are more illegal seizures from responsible owners and the laws are getting written increasingly vague. Really by now in this city they could seize anything at any time. They've written the laws so open they can put any animal under some category and the lists of species under those categories simply say this is not an exhaustive list and meant as example. Even if there is a process to it the police often don't know, don't want to bother figuring it out, or didn't care to begin with. A group talks loud enough and USDA requirements and laws for animal neglect procedures disappear. I told them a lot of people couldn't even get a lawyer in time to save their animals (sometimes of great importance) from death or sterilization and already begun rehoming by the time it goes to court. Most of the time a law/code can't even be cited at the time. Someone takes a few pics of dirty corners, a cage not even in use, purposely put down animals (I should freezer pack my mammals and write some fake pet food site on them), and some cobweb and someone figures out a law that can be applied. They don't even have to try here anymore. We were getting info straight on various weird snake laws and basically the most knowledgeable herpetologist on it in the state said you are covered if you do this, this, and this unless someone wants to be a jerk and then it doesn't matter because nowhere does it specify what counts as proof of anything. The pet stores seem to have agreed if we all sell only ball pythons and people buy lots of them it will be very hard to punish anyone or ban them and that's about all you'll find. I got everything online. Many through facebook groups, some through forum classifieds, the odd impulse off craigslist that you wouldn't normally get your hands on...

As of right now fb has made no measures to stop animal classifieds and has been encouraging spreading all classifieds around (which the button to post to all similar groups is suicide). It's actually the main buying and selling of specialty groups that aren't big enough for their own forum, which is probably it's safest and best use, and rapidly replacing craigslist and all other online listings that aren't special to a group of animal species since there isn't any rule against breeders. Although you will find some people get questioning if you sell a large number or a wide variety of animals and your name is attached to it so people can cause trouble easier. I generally post to the individual groups instead of the overall state or city animal classifieds. My activity is noticed less. If I do have what would look like a large number of one species I want to cull a bunch I had to grow out to decide on keepers or a certain color/type project that isn't working I post them in smaller similar groups and as the previous one finds buyers I add the next so my total number of listings and overall animals to view is always small. A few years ago though I was trying to rehome all hedgehogs, which weren't actually many, and I tried to stay neutral on the care questions with official USDA requirements, the suggestions of people keeping pet hedgehogs, and what all you could include in the cage and what space that would require so I couldn't be claimed to say something was specifically the right way. Woke up to both classifieds wiped clean and all people I had pm with blocked me. My husband tried to get an answer on his account but it remains a mystery to this day. I kept off the overall local fb classifieds for most of a year.
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Re: New animal "protection" laws...

Post Number:#15  Unread postby Random Rabbit » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:31 pm


There was quite a push this month on FB removing animal for sale posts. Some FB did themselves... Most were done by raras reporting posts for selling animals. After the horrific Live shooting of the elderly man in Cleveland... things dialed back a bit. Now i am hearing again of posts being removed.

Very careful wording of a post...not using for sale, or available...NOT giving a price Helps quite a bit keeping a post up.

Here is a link that talks about FB's policy.

https://medium.com/seriously-youre-maki ... 5db62def6e
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