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Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

A place to ask about rabbit colours and to discuss rabbit genetics -- and how to breed for the desired results.
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Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#1  Unread postby 2CrazyFools » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:11 am


I'm not well versed in rabbit color genetics (downright NEWB actually, not gonna lie) and I think y'all are an excellent resource, hence here I am. :D

If you had the option of purchasing 4 standard Rex rabbits, 1 buck 3 does, what would your color combination be?
I'm asking because apparently you don't want to breed XX color to XX color because then you get XXXX color which won't ever leave. Or something along those lines, like I said earlier, not well versed.

We are toying with purchasing some Rex rabbits within the next 6 months and I found a wonderful breeder with quite a variety of coat colors within my price range and she's actually less than an hour away! (Just moved here from Washington) I won't be ready to purchase for a few more months yet, we're going to see how these Americans are going to pan out this spring.

Goals:
-Stay with pure Rex
-Get all sorts of lovely color combinations. Not too fond of the single colors, prefer colors such as Otter ( :love: ), broken, tricolor, harli, etc... Basically I want to open the nest box and go, "Oooh! What a variety!"
-I'd like to stay with at least one showable color in case I do decide to go that route I won't have to purchase another set of critters, but mostly I don't care about showability.

So. With this in mind, what color would the buck be if you got to choose? I guess my question is, what color works best with multiple colors? I'd just love to go with some Otters but I've read you really only want to breed otter to otter or to solid. Which made me think I'd probably want a solid colored buck and then a variety of ladies. I'm trying to delve deeper into this whole black-hole called "Rabbit colors and genetics" but man it's confusing! The nice thing is that I have a 800 mile trip planned over the summer that I can pick up another rabbit if this breeder close by doesn't have the color or quality I'm looking for.

Thoughts? Opinions? Criticisms? I'm all ears! :rabbit-hop2:
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#2  Unread postby shazza » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:43 am


it kinda depends on what you want to do. if you want to show, then tricolour and harlequin are out - you can't show them. if you just want meat and fur, then do whatever you want, really.

i'm kinda doing both - for my show rexes i'm focusing on otter and castor, since you can't really cross them to much else but solids as you said. i love the look of black otters and dark castors, so hopefully i don't get too bored of them. i'm one of those people that prefers variety and barns full of rabbits all the same colour are kinda boring to me. BUT, i also have a japanese harlequin rex and i'm working on magpie harlequin rexes for more interesting pelts. not focusing solely on showing is nice because it means i can make weird colour crosses for funsies and it doesn't matter if i can't show them.

really though when you look at the accepted colours there's not really a whoole lot of variety. i love the breed but give me more pretty colours and patterns!
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#3  Unread postby Prisma » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:59 pm


Actually shazza, tri colors CAN be shown in Rex. Harlequin and harliequinized colors true you can't show though...

Some breeders don't want those genes in their lines (its like some are working on BEW Rex, they don't want those rabbits near their lines remotely reguardless of quality).
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#4  Unread postby SableSteel » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:24 pm


I'd get a broken buck (preferably broken blue), and then otter of different shades for the does... black otter, chocolate otter, blue otter, etc.
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#5  Unread postby 2CrazyFools » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:09 pm


Thanks you guys!

I feel like I'll probably go with a black self buck, black otter doe, broken (black? castor?) doe, and the third doe I'm not sure yet. I thought about a lovely tricolor doe but to get more tricolor kits I would need to find a buck that carries the tricolor gene right? In which case purchasing a tricolor doe wouldn't much make sense, especially since I've been reading that breeding tricolor to black is frowned upon, lol. Something about tris being agouti based and black being self based.... :shrug:

What about magpie? I'm lightly confused on that, is magpie a coat color found in Rex rabbits, or is Magpie a completely different rabbit breed? Both? If magpie is a coat color found in Rex, what would magpie do when paired with a black self? I'm assuming you wouldn't get lucky and get more magpies...

SableSteel wrote:I'd get a broken buck (preferably broken blue), and then otter of different shades for the does... black otter, chocolate otter, blue otter, etc.


SableSteel, getting in a reply while I'm typing. Sneaky sneaky... :lol:

Why broken blue over broken black? I know blue is a dilute of black would this possibly give more variety? (Example, blues and black instead of just blacks?) Also, breeding a broken to an otter, would that ever produce pure otter? I feel as though you're alluding to this being the case but I figured I should ask to be sure! Best not to assume anything in a realm that I know nothing in.
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#6  Unread postby KenoshaRabbits » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:34 pm


Hi 2CrazyFools.
So here's the bad news: if you actually care about color then you are going to have to take the time to learn about color genetics.

The "not bad" news is that learning about color genetics is not as difficult as most people make it out. There are plenty of articles online or youtube videos. In 15 minutes you can learn a lot of the basics. At that point you can fill in the rest of the info you want pretty easily. Here is a decent video that explains the basics well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dz34y9u534

The real challenge/skill is looking at a rabbit and figuring out its phenotype (the color information you can tell just by looking at it) and eventually determining its genotype (the hidden color information you have to discover via breeding).

Learning about this is important because it is not as simple as getting a certain combination of colors. For example I could have 2 steel-tipped chestnut (also known as "steel") bucks from the same litter; they look the same but could have different genotypes. And depending on the genotype one steel buck could only produce steel rabbits and the other steel buck could produce a variety of colors. In one instance it wouldn't matter what color does you had.

So I would suggest watching the video and reading about the "broken gene" and the "Japanese Brindling" gene (aka the harlequin gene) on http://mosaicrabbitry.weebly.com/rabbit ... etics.html
There is a ton of information out there and if you put a little effort into it you can learn a lot in an hour!

__________ Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:15 pm __________

2CrazyFools wrote:Thanks you guys!

I feel like I'll probably go with a black self buck, black otter doe, broken (black? castor?) doe, and the third doe I'm not sure yet. I thought about a lovely tricolor doe but to get more tricolor kits I would need to find a buck that carries the tricolor gene right? In which case purchasing a tricolor doe wouldn't much make sense, especially since I've been reading that breeding tricolor to black is frowned upon, lol. Something about tris being agouti based and black being self based.... :shrug:

What about magpie? I'm lightly confused on that, is magpie a coat color found in Rex rabbits, or is Magpie a completely different rabbit breed? Both? If magpie is a coat color found in Rex, what would magpie do when paired with a black self? I'm assuming you wouldn't get lucky and get more magpies...

SableSteel wrote:I'd get a broken buck (preferably broken blue), and then otter of different shades for the does... black otter, chocolate otter, blue otter, etc.


SableSteel, getting in a reply while I'm typing. Sneaky sneaky... :lol:

Why broken blue over broken black? I know blue is a dilute of black would this possibly give more variety? (Example, blues and black instead of just blacks?) Also, breeding a broken to an otter, would that ever produce pure otter? I feel as though you're alluding to this being the case but I figured I should ask to be sure! Best not to assume anything in a realm that I know nothing in.


It actually sounds like you know a lot as it is. LOL Don't sell yourself short.

__________ Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:34 pm __________

Regarding harlequins vs. magpies vs tricolored. This involves the ej gene.
Normally a harlequin is part (black or some other color) and part orange. Magpies are part (black or some other color) and part white. A tricolored is just a broken harlequin.

Technically the ej gene takes the dark brown and yellow pigments and puts them on separate hair shafts. Thus ej gene only works properly on rabbits that have the agouti gene. That is why they don't recommend breeding a harlequin/magpie/tri-colored to a rabbit that is self. What's the point of having all of that particular genetic info if it can just be wiped out with a self. (Although I suppose if you knew your harlequin/magpie/tri-colored was "AA" any breeding with a self would result in "Aa" kits and allow the harlequin/magpie/tri-colored to be expressed.)

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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#7  Unread postby SableSteel » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:39 am


2CrazyFools wrote:Thanks you guys!

I feel like I'll probably go with a black self buck, black otter doe, broken (black? castor?) doe, and the third doe I'm not sure yet. I thought about a lovely tricolor doe but to get more tricolor kits I would need to find a buck that carries the tricolor gene right? In which case purchasing a tricolor doe wouldn't much make sense, especially since I've been reading that breeding tricolor to black is frowned upon, lol. Something about tris being agouti based and black being self based.... :shrug:

What about magpie? I'm lightly confused on that, is magpie a coat color found in Rex rabbits, or is Magpie a completely different rabbit breed? Both? If magpie is a coat color found in Rex, what would magpie do when paired with a black self? I'm assuming you wouldn't get lucky and get more magpies...

SableSteel wrote:I'd get a broken buck (preferably broken blue), and then otter of different shades for the does... black otter, chocolate otter, blue otter, etc.


SableSteel, getting in a reply while I'm typing. Sneaky sneaky... :lol:

Why broken blue over broken black? I know blue is a dilute of black would this possibly give more variety? (Example, blues and black instead of just blacks?) Also, breeding a broken to an otter, would that ever produce pure otter? I feel as though you're alluding to this being the case but I figured I should ask to be sure! Best not to assume anything in a realm that I know nothing in.


Broken blue would give more variety than black. If the does were blacks that carry dilute (as an example), then if the buck was broken black carrying dilute, you'd get about 37.5% broken blacks, 12.5% broken blue, 37.5% black, and 12.5% blue, but if the buck was broken blue you'd get an even chance for each (25-25-25-25%). Otter and broken are separate genes, so breeding broken to otter, one of the most likely results is even a pure otter. You shouldn't breed a castor to a self or otter that isn't out of castor lines because it takes a few generations of castor to get the banding correct. Also, I'd avoid tricolor or harlequin (and magpie is just a variation of harlequin: harlequin + chinchilla), because it takes a tri or harlequin carrier to produce tris, and breeding to black or otter, and you can get a mess of colors, some with faults like poor banding, or disqualifications like barring in the belly color on otters/castors. Magpie x black self would most likely get you ugly castors, with some dqs in colors (harlequinization)
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#8  Unread postby Dood » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:21 am


You should look at the parents colours as well

A broken black with a parent that is tort and/or blue/dilute bred to a tri can produce tri (broken harli) and harli in the first generation (you'll also get broken and solid harli castors) and if bred to a blue otter you will get more blue otter as well as black otter and possibly self blues and blacks

Breeding a buck and doe with sable and/or REW parents means 25% of the kits could be those colours

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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#9  Unread postby 2CrazyFools » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:18 am


KenoshaRabbits wrote:So here's the bad news: if you actually care about color then you are going to have to take the time to learn about color genetics.


Sh*t. :|

Just kidding! :D The point of this post really was to point me in the right direction for the start of my self study, I'm all for learning new things especially related to animals but at this point (full time engineering student) I have limited time for studies not related to my degree, so a starting point when I have a few moments to jump in further is really helpful. If I try to just jump in without direction, man, talk about getting overwhelmed!

KenoshaRabbits wrote:The "not bad" news is that learning about color genetics is not as difficult as most people make it out. There are plenty of articles online or youtube videos. In 15 minutes you can learn a lot of the basics. At that point you can fill in the rest of the info you want pretty easily. Here is a decent video that explains the basics well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dz34y9u534

So I would suggest watching the video and reading about the "broken gene" and the "Japanese Brindling" gene (aka the harlequin gene) on http://mosaicrabbitry.weebly.com/rabbit ... etics.html
There is a ton of information out there and if you put a little effort into it you can learn a lot in an hour!


Ooh! Thank you so much for these resources! I'll definitely be taking you up on your suggestion of watching them. When you say there are "plenty of articles or youtube videos" you're not bloody kidding. Being a newb to all this makes weeding the good information from the bad mildly difficult if everything is new. So I greatly appreciate those links!

KenoshaRabbits wrote:It actually sounds like you know a lot as it is. LOL Don't sell yourself short.

I'm a very good parrot. Don't let that fool you into thinking I actually know what I'm repeating :lol:

KenoshaRabbits wrote:Technically the ej gene takes the dark brown and yellow pigments and puts them on separate hair shafts. Thus ej gene only works properly on rabbits that have the agouti gene. That is why they don't recommend breeding a harlequin/magpie/tri-colored to a rabbit that is self. What's the point of having all of that particular genetic info if it can just be wiped out with a self.


That makes a lot of sense! Thank you! I had read you didn't want to do it but didn't find an explanation as to why or why not.

SableSteel wrote:Broken blue would give more variety than black. If the does were blacks that carry dilute (as an example), then if the buck was broken black carrying dilute, you'd get about 37.5% broken blacks, 12.5% broken blue, 37.5% black, and 12.5% blue, but if the buck was broken blue you'd get an even chance for each (25-25-25-25%). Otter and broken are separate genes, so breeding broken to otter, one of the most likely results is even a pure otter. You shouldn't breed a castor to a self or otter that isn't out of castor lines because it takes a few generations of castor to get the banding correct. Also, I'd avoid tricolor or harlequin (and magpie is just a variation of harlequin: harlequin + chinchilla), because it takes a tri or harlequin carrier to produce tris, and breeding to black or otter, and you can get a mess of colors, some with faults like poor banding, or disqualifications like barring in the belly color on otters/castors. Magpie x black self would most likely get you ugly castors, with some dqs in colors (harlequinization)


Good information! I'll remove the thought of caster from the equation, lol. Sounds like my best bet is sticking with the brokens and otters, which is just fine by me! I'd love to get into the tris but I'm not ready for that sort of color phenotyping / genotyping commitment. Plus, limited space. Breeding tricolors just isn't that high up on my list at this point! The breeder I'm toying with purchasing these rabbits off of is trying to establish her tricolor line (she's got some lovely does but needs a buck that carries tri, she may have one coming in soon from out of state) but there's a chance it won't happen for awhile. Which is good, because that will give me time to decide, years later, if that's even something I want to work towards. Gosh they sure are beautiful though aren't they? All that work ends up being worthwhile in the end.

I just checked out her page again and she definitely has produced a few broken blues so it's in the realm of possibilities! Thanks so much SableSteel!

Dood wrote:You should look at the parents colours as well

A broken black with a parent that is tort and/or blue/dilute bred to a tri can produce tri (broken harli) and harli in the first generation (you'll also get broken and solid harli castors) and if bred to a blue otter you will get more blue otter as well as black otter and possibly self blues and blacks

Breeding a buck and doe with sable and/or REW parents means 25% of the kits could be those colours


Thanks Dood! I'll probably steer clear of the tris for now, just keep it on the backburner as something I may wish to work towards in the future. Maybe when I knew more about these fun genetics. :D
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#10  Unread postby KenoshaRabbits » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:11 pm


Hey 2CrazyFools

I was googling around last night and I found someone with a good website/article about breeding tri-colors. I think it may be directly on point if breeding tri-colors is your goal. The article is written with mini-lops in mind but is applicable to any rabbit. Plus this person listed out a bunch of the phenotypes for particular tri-colors (although she accidentally says genotype when talking about incomplete information).

http://www.jodysrabbitry.com/tricolor.html

And another good resource is this color calculator: http://www.ephiny.net/tim/pedigrees/color_calc.php
It is fun to play around with.

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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#11  Unread postby caroline » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:04 pm


I raise Standard Rex exclusively and have had tris for about 5 years.
It is not that complicated.
The varieties that you use to get them are:
broken red, & harlequin [not recognized for show],
You can also use broken fawn [in Rex these are shown as Lynx but they are actually genetically dilute red, either black based or brown based]
If any of your rabbits are self carrier _a, then you will also eventually end up with tortoise shell: aa __ __ __ ee,
which is not recognized for showing in Standard Rex but hey, these are meat rabbits, and I just eat the ones that I don't want in my breeding program.
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Black Orange Harlequin.jpg
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Basically you want to breed the brokens to the harlequins, Which will give you more broken [including tri] and harlequin as well as some reds or fawn/lynx
If you are only breeding tri to tri you will get 1/4 charlies, which are not showable and may have gut issues [what happens when you double up on the broken gene]
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#12  Unread postby Ramjet » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:11 pm


Cant help .... I prefer to stick with solid colors , mostly dilutes , lilac , chocolate , blue (and black) .... to me the hides are more useful when they are uniform.

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Cant help .... I prefer to stick with solid colors , mostly dilutes , lilac , chocolate , blue (and black) .... to me the hides are more useful when they are uniform.
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Re: Rex: If you had the option... what would you do?

Post Number:#13  Unread postby BlueHaven » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:37 pm


Yep totally agree. A broken buck in an otter self color. Solid does in blue, chocolate, otter in black, chocolate blue or lilac. You will get so many beautiful colors and its usually pretty easy to please your buyers as you will have most colors people like.. I love white and I love chinchillas but they are not common around here and you need to seperate and have three breeding programs going so its going to take way more cages. I don't LOVE rabbit meat so I breed sparingly and only breed till my holes are full and then show those to see what passes the mustard so to speak. Just do this.. Make sure you put your money in good rabbits from reputable people that show and perhaps have some legs.(wins) COnformation is every thing and the right fur is right behind along with rabbits that get to the proper size on time. Don't buy junk or you will not be happy and will be out of the hobby pretty quick. Raise rabbits you can be proud of. this breed deserves that.

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