Selecting a Show Bunny

We have a local contact who is selling a Holland Lop for $250, and has claimed he has several wins at shows all over the state and beyond. I believe its true, but also know this person is a salesman. He has been known to haggle something to a low price then turn around and sell it for a profit, which is not illegal, any many others may do this on occasion. I know a couple of other breeders who travel with and vouch for him, and I trust them a lot. But how do you make sure you are not being taken advantage of? And that the price is good? The buck is around a year or so old, and I dont even know how long they can be shown Just not sure where to start. I have a daughter who will be showing in youth and I just want her to start with some sucess, and I know you get what you pay for. Any thoughts??????

Ask for the buck's ear # and proof of legs he's won. Which will be paper certificates from each show. For that price they should be willing to share.

Good advice! He said it has 2 legs, wasnt sure what that meant! I was thinking "thats great, I hope he has two more in back too", lol

Get a picture of the buck, & post it here. The dwarf breeds can be rather expensive, but $250 seems to be on the rather high end. Hollands peak a bit later than other breeds, so 1 year is a pretty good age to know what you're getting when you buy.

Will do as soon as I get pics! He said he was going to try and sell him at Nationals with a $350 price tag, but would go down to $250 for us to downsize now, because he has a lot of Jr's hes trying to grow out. That makses sense, and again, I do know you get what you pay for, but these are animals and the lingo is something a salesman would use. I just want to make sure that if we spend that we can win something! I do really trust the reccomenadation of these other breeders, just dont want to overpay. Anything is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay for it tho, I understand all that. Thanks!

anyone showing at a nationals comp. should have some reputation by name. Ask around. Talk is cheap, 2 legs is something in that breed, as its super super competitive. The breed is popular and classes are large. Still.. I would check his name and reputation. Get on some facebook groups, find some people that show at those shows and pm them and ask away. It coul be a great rabbit, it could be a pig in a poke. Also,, get real familiar with this breeds proper type and fur, so you know what your looking at..

Be really really careful. Your area and what is competitive there will not stack here (east coast) in my experience. Holland are EXTREMELY competitive compared to other breeds, I found even ND was less. I've seen some with legs (any where from a couple to 10+) do poorly here even dq'd. Get the standard, look at it, have others look over the rabbit, THEN decide if that's too much of a gamble for you. You are buying the rabbit, paper means nothing. A good pedigree is a plus (can tell consistence in line that way) but it won't fix bad hec or poor hq etc no matter how many wins is in its background.

Another thing is, that rabbit was the best on that particular show day. Unless the numbers where high (100 plus competing), that's not that impressive to me any more.

Check his standing with the National Holland Lop Rabbit club. His point standings will tell you whether he shows a lot and the quality of his showing over all (does he have a lot of BOB/BIS listed or just many shows n lots of points type of deal). Use google to look up their name and rabbitry, ask judges in the area if they've run into them and registers too. See about going to a show they are going to and see what they show and how they do.

Hi Macksmom:

Please remember that price does not always equal quality. We were duped early on in HLs. The breeder talked fast and sold us rabbits for a hefty price. As we gained more experience, we realized those rabbits were pet quality only. It was so discouraging that we sold the rabbits (as pets for a lot less than we paid) and never had Hollands again.

Rebel Rose makes an excellent point. The rabbit has won, but what was the competition? I live in a rural area. Some shows are fairly small and it's easy to win with stock that wouldn't get a second look at a larger show. This rabbit might do well for your daughter, but may not depending upon the competition that day.

I'm not sure what your goals are, but some excellent advice was given to me: buy rabbits so you can breed your own winners. That means of course you buy good rabbits, the best you can, but your goal is to mesh the rabbits to get even better offspring.

You are correct. I know this rabbit does have a pedigree, and have had pet quality hollands for a couple of years to know the difference. At this point, I think I am mostly concerned with what shows were won and how large they were. I love the advice given, than you all so much for weighing in! I will report back what I found out and how we do. We are mostly concerned about local shows, as we have no plans to travel far, but still dont want to end up over paying. I suspect the rabbit is likely worth $200-$250, and that the breeder was trying to make it more attractive by saying he was planning to ask $350, but I am still going into it doing my research and everything I can not to get taken advantage of. I know the other two breeders who know him and travel with him would not keep company with someone regularly screwing people over, so thats my starting point. First ARBA show in Victoria TX this weekend, also buying a pair of giant chins!

Do you have pictures of him?

I would suggest spending some time at shows with the breeders of the rabbit breed you are interested in ..... I spent a year hanging out with REX breeders... working with mutts at home, before selecting my Breed of choice ... it ended up being Harlequins...lol... but I learned an awful lot about Commercial body type (REX and Harlequin are judged on the same body type.... although more marks are given to a Harlequin markings than type)...

GET a copy of the standard.... read it... know what you are looking for.

Bring an experienced breeder, shower or judge with you when you go to buy the animal....
Better yet, meet them at a show.... ask an experienced person or a judge for assistance in evaluating the animal.

If I were paying that kind of $ for a rabbit, I would want to buy him fresh off the show table after listening very carefully to a judge evaluate the animal. (taking careful notes)

I also wanted to mention that I would not commit to buying the rabbit without first seeing it in person. Pictures are great, but you can do a lot to make an animal look better (or worse) with different lighting, a slightly different angle, or positioning the feet a fraction of an inch. Good luck!

I have done paypal with rabbits but not when they have been this expensive before. I agree, and do not plan to exchange any money until we can see him. I will have several of my expereienced breeder friends there as well, and appreciate their help and advice so much. We are looking to show and buy him at the show on Sat. I have yet to see any pics or copies/pics of the proof of legs he has won. When I spoke wth the breeder he explaine he would be busy at an estate auction out of town for the weekend, so he really isnt behind in getting me that info yet. I did just send him a reminder and let him know we were interested, so that he realizes that we are still considering that big price tag Ill post here as soon as I get pics and info, and share with you all. Thank you friends for helping to look out for us! We are jumping in with both feet. I know it would be great to be able to hang out at shows for a while first, but its just not feasable for us to drive from the Corpus Christi area to LA, or even 6 hours to Dallas. We are hoping to get to the San Antonio show and will go to the one in Victoria TX this weekend. Its a journey but my 11 yr old is ready to compete, and I dont want to squash her excitement either.

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<br /><br /> __________ Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:31 pm __________ <br /><br /> Here he is! He did say that they would clean him up for the show, and that he only has one leg, from the Canton, TX show.

IMHO, you are being asked to pay way over premium price for an unproven junior with ONLY ONE LEG (seriously now???)

I also would have an issue about the cleanliness conditions of the rabbitry if you are getting photos of a dirty rabbit!!!

I raise English Angoras and Silver Fox and have a cage of growouts at 8 weeks old right now and not one is dirty on the face or feet. One of my customers, however, has a stinky, nasty rabbitry with non-rabbit cages and all of hers have smudges, disease, and generally poor health.

It looks like it is a sad state at that rabbitry, and you and your child would be better off going to the local show and buying there from the show table. If at all possible, buying from a breeder that you can visit the premises to see the cleanliness would be best. You would probably have a wider selection also.

I don't know diddly about the breed you are looking at, but I do know about animal care and I wouldn't buy from a situation as demonstrated by the photo, and I don't sell to the customer of mine that I mentioned and am glad she sold off the stock with my name on the pedigree!

Sorry if I offend anyone, but unclean conditions is one of my let peeves! Animals are DIRTY because we have removed them from their natural habitat and it is our job, duty, responsibility, etc to house them in the cleanest, healthiest conditions we can provide.

With that said, how are you going to explain to your child about the difference in conditions of how you house your rabbit? And how is it right to leave animals in conditions that you wouldn't tolerate? Its tough to raise kids these days! The other problem is the illnesses and diseases rabbits càn carry without showing symptoms!

He will be cleaned up and on the table at the show, so if I looked there he would be one of the options, as they are ribbon chasers and show all over the south. I know they just built a new barn so their rabbits can have A/C, which is a major luxury here in South TX, and that local breeders all say this breeder is the Holland guy. I have never been there, just saw pics of it going in. I took that effort as some indication that they desire to have a nice operation and do a lot to make the bunnies comfortable. The breeder warned me that he is a messy boy, and has at least addressed it. I know we have had some messier Holland Bucks, they love to spray, and that needed extra attn as did their cages, so I do believe they can be a messier breed. I appreciate all the comments, I am a bit more discouraged since once he checked the records he found out the rabbit did only have one leg and not two. As far as my daughter goes, she knows how we do things no matter what anyone else does. She does understand that not everyone feels the same. I definitely would not want to bring in anything that could hurt the rest of my stock! I always worry about that, with any new acquisition. These pics were taken on a whim late last night, because I pushed for them, and I do know there wasn't much time to clean him up....not making excuses or saying those concerns aren't valid, I have them too, just putting down my thoughts and trying to project the full picture.

macksmom98":bykqdly0 said:

I am a bit more discouraged since once he checked the records he found out the rabbit did only have one leg and not two.

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I'm curious if the breeder may consider lowering the price a little now, since the rabbit does not have as many accolades as originally advertised?

And hopefully someone who knows more about what to look for in a good Holland can hop in here and help you assess the conformation of that little buck.

I'm going to be very frank. To me, he is not worth that. They have every right to ask the price they are asking, I'm not saying that, its just based on what I know and have seen, not enough for this area.

If I was going to gamble that much on a JR, I'd buy from Campo or Saynora lines. They've been around many many years and have consistent high placings.

He would *not* do well here in competition based on the pictures. He lacks width in the chest (which is a BIG BIG thing with HL). He needs more width in his body over all and could use more bone (most HLs could though). Good head width and nice ears...but body he doesn't cut. Shoulders that are not set wide enough apart make the rabbit more V shaped then U which is not wanted with HLs. He *might* be good for the area, or a starter but I'm afraid you're going to find that its harder to get better using a buck that lacks width (unless you find some stellar does). Your buck is your back bone, finding a doe with solid enough features to complement him is going to be hard. If you get a doe with long shoulders or long midsection, the kits are probably going to have that problem but worse considering his body. Does would have to be super short and super heavy and wide in body to even out his faults.

This is a picture of a buck that is for sale for $100. This is an older SR that has produced show offspring though. He has his problems too, his head isn't as near as good as the one you're considering. But it IS possible to find better at a more reasonable price. Most cross country transports are $50 to $100, even at that a proven show producing buck may do you better. He's not considered show prime any more because of his age.

https://www.facebook.com/mshollands/pos ... 5881708297 is the link for the Facebook posting. There are many HL available on the HL groups and ARBA show page.

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There's also the possibility that those are just not good pictures (although its really hard to throw off bone in a picture, either they got it or they don't). Have several people look him over if going to seriously consider him. Consider your does (or prospective does). If you can't get parts does to even out the kids, won't do any good either.

I see what you mean about the shoulders, and the width and pattern there. It does look like his feet are positioned farther apart than the picture of the other one, not sure if that would really make any difference tho. Thank you for that insight!

I am not a Holland Lop person by any stretch of the definition. However, based upon photos and rabbits I have seen locally that perform well at shows, I would NOT spend $250 on this buck. I am friends with someone who does breed HLs and would share the photo with her if you like.

As for the rabbit being dirty and that indicating a filthy rabbitry: some bucks spray urine to mark their territory and some will even rub in it (it looks like this buck does). Most of his fur appears white so if I had to hazard a guess, I would say he is a sprayer. The breeder could have done more to clean him up for photos - especially at the price he's asking.

I agree with this assessment of the picture for sure, I do think this is what happen. If you have time, please do share this with your friend and see what she thinks!