(Solved: gut activity) Two pregnant does way overdue.

EDIT: Pretty sure at this point my does are NOT pregnant, I was simply witnessing gut activity and freaking out. :roll:

I'm looking for suggestions/insight/or fellow head scratching.

Two blue American does, (purchased both of them from a "Boyd" in Oklahoma, he claimed they were papered but never got me ANY information about them after we exchanged $$$ and rabbits... shame on me for not getting it up front.) one who I suspect is pretty old, I purchased her as a breeding doe but I'm worried she might be more the retiree age and he shoved her off on an unsuspecting newbie. (Me.)

The second doe was supposedly a young show rabbit, never bred, currently around a year and a half old. I have no reason to not believe this, she does appear young, in her prime, very docile and used to being handled. Shiny healthy coat.

They weren't very .... interested in being bred so finally after many refusals through the fall season I stuck them into cages with a male buck each and left them there for a week. My older doe pulled fur within 2 weeks and made me worried I would have a way early litter.

I SWEAR that week was December 12th-16th. Therefore I'd start watching them January 9th and expect them to kindle at minimum on the 9th and maximum on the 19th (at 34 days if they got pregnant the last day of the week that they were with the males.)

Nothing. Next week... nothing. Next week, nothing. Guys... it is the 30th of January! Both have very active bellies as of an hour ago, both are very overdue. There is no doubt that they are both pregnant.

Youtube of the young girl's belly moving on the 16th: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20wxc1Z4s2U&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

What on earth?! What is going on??? Neither are acting strangely, eating and moving just fine. I've been bringing them down to run around for an hour, and then the last 5 minutes I'll bring down a buck to hopefully get her hormones going. This is the third day of that.

I'm so confused :shrug:

Even if, lets say I recalled incorrectly and they were with the bucks the week before Christmas, they are still overdue.

(I purchased three does from this "Boyd" feller, one I was successful in breeding right away in spring of 2016, she was also probably pretty old and had 9 babies, all stillborn and she died from it. Now we're having this weird issue... I've had many successful litters with my meat mutts, but my expensive rabbits just aren't coming to fruition! My husband is ripping his hair out from worry, he's really attached to Clover, that young doe in the video.)

EDIT: I should probably add that we do have a double vet appointment on Wednesday. :doc:

Hello . . . and welcome to RabbitTalk! :welcome:

They weren't very .... interested in being bred so finally after many refusals through the fall season I stuck them into cages with a male buck each and left them there for a week. My older doe pulled fur within 2 weeks and made me worried I would have a way early litter.

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The older doe was perhaps having a false pregnancy. The timing supports that. Gut activity is not always due to kits. Sometimes it us just the digestive process.

I'd be inclined to rebreed them. If they are pregnant but overdue it may get things going. If not, at least you can hope for kits in early March.

Willingness to breed and successful breeding are, to my thinking, closely related. Because rabbits are induced ovulators, I question how easily ovulation occurs when a doe is reluctant. Nothing except my observations to back this up, so take it with a grain or two of salt.

Thank you Maggie!
My husband is really stressing out over this and he's very worried that these two Americans will die like the first one. Once bit twice shy I guess, plus he's really fond of the youngest girl.

About the possible gut activity, did you watch the video? Does that appear to be gut activity? It really looks like babies moving around in there, I guess tomorrow I'll grab Clover and really palpitate to see if I feel kits. I look every day to make sure the babies are still moving inside and not dead and each day I see obvious movement, I just feel that's a lot of constant movement for gut activity. However it had crossed my mind and I focused on one of the bucks that was sprawled out to see if I could see "imaginary kits" in him too which would confirm the gut activity but his belly was 100% "kitless." lol.

I did have a buck mount and do a fall off of the older doe today, but I'll go ahead and try to get them "re-bred" tomorrow and cross my fingers.

We've just not been having the greatest luck with these blues.

Thanks so much for the response Maggie! This will certainly help ease my husband's mind a bit.

-- Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:42 pm --

MaggieJ":3bax0rl1 said:

Gut activity is not always due to kits. Sometimes it is just the digestive process.

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I also just read " That will be little bunny-feet kicking around in her womb. Look for quick little kicks, especially when she's laying on her side. You'll know it when you see it. And when you see it, you've definitely got a pregnant rabbit. Don't confuse the little kicks with the rhythmic rolling movement of the rabbit's intestines, however. Actually, the two are very easy to tell apart, especially when you've seen both."

RHYTHMIC ROLLING MOVEMENT?! .... :x ... yeah... well... they don't look like kicks at all now. UHG. Really? REALLY?! My husband is going to be relieved and irritated, lol. I think you hit the nail on the head... I guess I'll take a better look tomorrow and see what I decide.

Gosh freaking dang it. Lmao.

yep, i have a video somewhere of a kit kicking in one of my does...it's very obviously different. guts are more of a rolling movement, very smooth and rhythmic like someone kneading dough except inside a rabbit. the kicking looks just like it sounds - a sharp, quick movement, usually near the knee/waist of the doe when she's laying on her side. movement higher on the side like your doe is almost always gut movement, especially when it's as rhythmic as in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpTghIGYxT4

this is a pretty decent video of kits kicking inside an incredibly pregnant doe. the first movement could be kits moving, but it's very similar to what gut rolls look like, so i wouldn't count it as evidence. after a few seconds you can clearly see a kit kicking, though, which would be very pleasing to see. although again, this doe is clearly full of kits even without seeing them kick, haha.

i agree with maggie, i would rebreed them! check the doe's vent before putting her in with a buck, if it's puffy and red or purple she will most likely be receptive, though it's not foolproof. it's always best to SEE rabbits breed, so you know absolutely for sure. if they don't breed after a few minutes, try again tomorrow or in a couple days. it's really not a great idea to leave a doe and buck unsupervised in case the doe gets tired of her companion and really injures him. sometimes they're best friends, sometimes she decides to use her teeth to remove the family jewels x: and even if they get along initially, i have a doe that is amicable until AFTER she is bred - then she viciously attacks the buck (and me,) until i put her back in her cage.

your idea of letting them in the run isn't a bad one actually, but i think it's best to let the buck in first so he can mark everything as his own before introducing the doe. does can be territorial if they think a space is 'theirs.' swapping their cages for a night can also get does in the mood by having them smell buck for several hours. but generally, just keep trying until they cooperate.

shazza":xnu2ajvm said:

yep, i have a video somewhere of a kit kicking in one of my does..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpTghIGYxT4

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Haha, I actually found your video earlier and it helped me go, "Hmm.. that's probably not kicking going on in Clover's belly..." great video for that Shazza!

shazza":xnu2ajvm said:

i agree with maggie, i would rebreed them! check the doe's vent before putting her in with a buck, if it's puffy and red or purple she will most likely be receptive, though it's not foolproof. it's always best to SEE rabbits breed, so you know absolutely for sure. if they don't breed after a few minutes, try again tomorrow or in a couple days. it's really not a great idea to leave a doe and buck unsupervised in case the doe gets tired of her companion and really injures him. sometimes they're best friends, sometimes she decides to use her teeth to remove the family jewels x: and even if they get along initially, i have a doe that is amicable until AFTER she is bred - then she viciously attacks the buck (and me,) until i put her back in her cage.

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I've been having difficulty breeding these two females, I tried to breed them from September through early December and after they never lifted I got tired of it and as a last resort I put them in the buck's cages for a week mid Dec. SURELY they would get bred. Man... I 'spose not.

However, the older doe was receptive today and had one fall off, so I'll try to get a couple more fall offs tomorrow and cross my fingers again. Palpitating earlier and not just going off of gut activity. :lol: However, the younger doe was not having the buck chasing her around.

Thank you both, so terribly much. I'm serious, this was REALLY stressing out my husband to the max. I just told him what y'all said and what I saw and my conclusions and he let out a sigh of relief. Weight on shoulders, gone.

hah well that wasn't my rabbit...just one i found on youtube i think the only place i posted my video was on twitter and i can't post those videos, boo. she was about that pregnant though - she had twelve kits!

i went all of last year without a single litter due to noncooperative does and heat sterility...so i know how you feel. i honestly can't really say what i did to get the does to start lifting because i tried literally everything. there are so many things that could cause them to not want to breed - the feed they're on, the time of year, the weather...who knows. i roll my eyes now whenever i hear someone use the phrase 'breed like rabbits.'

the fact that your older doe lifted is a good sign - she'll likely be receptive tomorrow too, but even just one falloff can be enough. fingers crossed! the younger doe may just need to get used to being with a buck if she's never been bred. virgin does are finicky. letting her have 'dates' with the buck every day for 20 minutes or so in a larger run area can help her get used to him being around and she should eventually want to breed. the extra space seems less likely to freak out the does since they have more room to escape from a buck if she isn't into it.

i hope you're better than me at palpating though, lol. i have just come to accept that i can't do it. i've watched tons of videos, tried tons of times, even had a breeder show me how, still couldn't feel a thing. i'm doomed to find out if my does are pregnant the long way i guess

shazza":g4xbd7wg said:

i went all of last year without a single litter due to noncooperative does and heat sterility...so i know how you feel.

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Uhg, yes. We didn't breed at all over the summer due to the heat and after it cooled off enough no-one was interested! Not to mention, I just sold the current litter's mother which was very eager to be re-bred and within 2 minutes had 3 fall-offs with one of our bucks. I had assumed we would get a bunch of kits from these two "pregnant" does any day now, so when someone asked if I had a bred doe for sale I figured, sure. We wanted to exchange her for her daughter that we were keeping eventually anyway so I sold her. Then I posted this here, found out that the does aren't even pregnant, and now I don't have a willing breeding doe. My husband went, "Did you really just sell our only producer? :| "

Live and learn, lol.

shazza":g4xbd7wg said:

the fact that your older doe lifted is a good sign - she'll likely be receptive tomorrow too, but even just one falloff can be enough. fingers crossed! the younger doe may just need to get used to being with a buck if she's never been bred. virgin does are finicky. letting her have 'dates' with the buck every day for 20 minutes or so in a larger run area can help her get used to him being around and she should eventually want to breed. the extra space seems less likely to freak out the does since they have more room to escape from a buck if she isn't into it.

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I checked both does, feeling nothing in their bellies and getting some royal glares from both. I then dismantled the older doe's BEAUTIFULLY made nest with a crud-ton of fur layers throughout the nesting area and I felt a little bad. She put a lot of thought into this nest! Too bad it was just that false pregnancy about two weeks in... on the bright side I have some extra fur now in case one of my future mothers doesn't pull much.

Neither doe was down with some sexy-time today so I swapped cages with the bucks and figured I'll let them mingle a bit every day on the neutral ground territory after they've slept in some hormone infested cages. At the very least they'll get some good exercise running from the males.... :lol: