Chinchilla HL question

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Prisma

Prisma

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Purely for what correct color is, not showability etc.

I finally found a black chinchilla nearby that was within price range, non showable due to being harlequinized after getting closer look. Took a chance as he looks like he's going to have better crown and limb shortness compared to my does. I believe he is also a vm, but his eye circles aren't as clear as they should be. Could he be steeled? At a quick glance, that's what he looks like but if really look at him can see eye circles, ear lacing, has white belly, and nostril markings. I know being harlequinized can mess with color, but didn't think it would cause issues with markings like that. <br /><br /> -- Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:26 pm -- <br /><br /> Pictures to be posted once home from work. Sire magpie chin based and Dam is broken chestnut. Siblings were blue that I suspect is a self chin in disguise as she's not quite blue blue and various shades of broken chestnut. Further back is torts, tri, harlequins, smoke pearl, sable point, bew, vm black, vm chestnuts.
 
Steel is not very common in Hollands, and when you do see it, generally the steels are a darker, medium-black steel instead of the chestnut looking ones you see a lot in mini lops & other breeds, so it is hard to mistake. Generally carrying harlequin makes a steel even darker - nearly black, with almost no way to pass as a normal, or even harlequinized chinchilla. The harlequin gene is likely to blame for the reduced eye circles - I've seen it happen before, especially when the darker part of the harlequin is around the eye area (but not only then, other times too). Sounds like a normal harlequinized chinchilla to me
 
Here are some pictures. The eye circles are faint and so is the lacing but its there. There is no ruby cast to eyes, thats flash on. Trying to figure how to get better ones that'll be easier to his color. <br /><br /> -- Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:01 pm -- <br /><br /> The ring picture didn't turn out too well. My camera wanted to blur the fur ugh. But there's distinct rings.
 

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And one more....better overall pic. <br /><br /> -- Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:07 pm -- <br /><br /> There's no shading. No rust. I really wish I could get a true to him. He's def harlequinized, along his face is an obvious split...easier to see in last pic posted. Then chin split as well.
 

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Belly picture? I think the unusual darkness around the head is caused by nonextension, but I think the sable gene may be in there to through you off too. Looks to me like a harlequinized sable chinchilla.
 
Why do you say sable chin? Ones I've had always had clear shading. No harle marks. And rusty look.

Is there any way to tell for sure by breeding? I have torts, magpie, tri, harlequin, and rew does. Rews are black blue and chestnut/opal based. <br /><br /> -- Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:17 pm -- <br /><br /> Chin and belly shots.


Not being smart or anything like that, really want to be able to understand why :) Maybe worry bit but don't want comments taken poorly either :pancake:
 

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You said there's shaded in the background. Sable chins can vary in color as much as, or even more than sables (and I think this is actually chinchilla on seal instead of chinchilla on sable, which may make it appear darker and less sable-y than some other sable chins). The main reasons is that the color does seem sepia-like to me (though that can just be my computer screen, and isn't enough to say much unless I saw that in person). But the rabbit has some shading in places common in sable based rabbits, and the shading is so even and thorough, it is unless to just be caused by the harlequinization. I've attached some pictures, so maybe you can see what I am seeing. It is hard though, to tell from pictures, especially when the harlequin gene is involved.

Edit: also, forgot to add, when a sable chinchilla is harlequinized, the brinding is sable color instead of black like normal harlequinization, so it follows the shaded pattern of the rest of the body and can blend in more, especially on the body area where it is naturally paler
 

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Hmm I just took it as barring. Its darker in those areas but no rust, brown tinge. It'll darken as he ages if shaded though right? Or impossible to tell?

What about color as far as marking on ped, granted breeding will be a while but I don't want to breed him to my self chins if he is really shaded? Or will breeding him to a siamse sable tell me? If he throws shaded he's definitely a shaded chin right or ? The ones I had were obvious, so petted or other purposed out. Very confusing.
 
Breed him to a Siamese sable, if you get sables he is *probably* a sable chinchilla (the genes recessive to sable are even rarer than sable in Hollands). If you get darker selfs, he is probably just a chinchilla. It will probably get lighter as he ages, the kit coat of shadeds tend to be darker from my experience. It could just be barring, but (especially on the mask) the chances for barring to be in the exact position as a mask normally is on a shaded is rather low
 

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Hmm k. Will see what happens later on. Here are 2 more pics though. Think I'm going to have to dig out my good dslr and see how it does. If I didn't know same bun I'd swear all diff rabbit.
 

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I also think he is a harlequinized sable chin

To my eye his colour is not "clean" enough to be chinchilla

I have produced plenty of harli chins and don't think the harli gene is causing the discrepancy
 

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