Vent?

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volz83

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Can a rabbit just show signs on the lip with crusts for vent but have a clear vent? I have a doe I got from another well known breeder and she has crusts only on one side of her lip, just that spot and it seems to be getting worse but her vent is clean, eyes don't have any of the same crusts. The buck I bred her to is fine, the does he bred to are fine and so are this rabbit's two kits and a kit she fostered is fine. This doe doesn't seem a robust as well so not sure if she's just of poor health from breeding? If not vent, what else can cause scabs?

Here is a picture of her with the scabs on:
IMG_5110.jpg

IMG_5109.jpg


Here is after I removed the scabs, skin red underneath and some of her fur came out. No indents or deep wounds, just surface:
scab%20removal%202.jpg


I should mention that since I received the doe in April, she has not traveled anywhere else. She was bred to my main buck but again he is fine and he has since been bred to others and they seem fine. He was last bred to this doe 2 months ago and at the same time I bred him to two other does and they are fine. If it was vent, wouldn't others start showing signs by now? The other thing I thought it might be is fur mites? I discovered really flaky skin just on her lower hips, never seen so much flaky skin on a rabbit. Can fur mites effect the face to? She has some scratched on both her ears as well so maybe she's itchy? I will give her a treatment of Ivermectin.
 
Sadly the bad thing about vent is they may NEVER show a single sign until a flair up. That doe looks like she has VD. Any buck bred to her and any does bred to that buck are infected. Any kits even born from that buck are also infected due to the does. You will need to treat each one that doe has been in direct and indirect contact with.
 
Ok ya I was thinking I might have to do that but at least you can treat and get rid of vent so that is some good news.. just a pain to treat everyone but I will. I won't breed any new junior does just turning 6 months old until treated first. <br /><br /> -- Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:39 pm -- <br /><br /> Ok so another doe I got from the same breeder came down with the same symptoms. So I treated all my rabbits who where ready and old enough for penicillin injects (3 shots @ 7 days apart each) etc. I just went to give the 3rd round of shots tonight and both does still have the same scabs, the chestnut has less but the other doe has just as much when I first discovered it. So my question is, if it did not 100% clear up after the injections, it can't be vent right? I'm confused as to what it might be?
 
I'm not sure...but want to clarify what you're doing.

You're giving a shot 7 days apart? If so, that's not going to work. It has to be long lasting pen g for 3 days straight 7 days off, another shot, 7 off and another shot to be most effective and best bet on getting completely rid of. Some others have used less, but when I tried it didn't work. The pens have to be cleaned as well or they'll just reinfect. It can be pasturella, but usually there's abscesses along with the scabs from what I've read (I've not run into it though personally, but google turns up a few things).

If you are not using long lasting with procaine (spelling might be off), you have to do it longer periods to work (entire week of shots instead as the pen that's not long lasting has a short 24 hr life). There is also the chance that if the person has had to treat it a lot but not actually cured it, the strain could no longer be bothered by the pen g.
 
Ok so per advice from a friend who had vent go through her herd, I have been using Dura-Pen (Penicillin G benzathine) which is: one shot every 7 days for three shots total. I did notice a lot of improvement in the chestnut doe pictured above, it's like 95% gone after treatments started. The other doe who now has it, hasn't shown any improvements since it started up in her, maybe a little but not much. Same treatment as suggested on The Nature Trail website on vent.

As far as getting reinfected, I have hand sanitizer in my rabbitry I use all the time and been really careful. No setting on shared spaces (like for posing/evals etc), no sharing of equipment, no breeding of any sort, I washed all feed dishes/water bottles/toys in the dishwasher, and I haven't used a common cage brush scrubber/cleaner since this all started.
 
Dishwasher is not disinfectant. Need to use bleach or some thing stronger designed to clean livestock areas. If you have a TSC nearby, they carry a few things that work.

I feel silly...benzathine is long acting and procaine is not....by the discriptions on the site. But my vet swears the Pen I have gotten is the long lasting combo...maybe that's why it works were the other has not for me before. I've not had any cases since 2013 though when I stopped buying on pity impulses.

Like said never have had any luck treating with one dose. How much did you dose per pound? While TNT is a good site, the information for several diseases/illnesses haven't been updated in years and since its a growing issue to pick up at shows or buy from known/unknown carriers...some strains are just resistant.

"Penicillin G Procaine (a.k.a. Pen G) – used to treat rabbits with vent disease (syphilis). Administer 40,000 IU/kg (or 0.06 cc/per lb. of 300,000 IU/kg Pen G solution), sub-q, 1x daily, for 5 days. Do NOT administer orally or topically as doing so could be fatal!
Please be aware, vent disease is like syphilis in people, which has primary, secondary, latent (hidden or silent), tertiary (advanced complications), and congenital phases. We have unknowingly purchased rabbits in the latent stage who, in turn, infected members of our herd through breeding. For these reasons combined with the fact that there are always risks associated the use of Penicillin, we treat all new rabbits before introducing them into our herd.

Note: Some people also use long-lasting, combo versions of Procaine Penicillin G and Penicillin G Benzathine, known as Dura-Pen or Pen BP-48, to treat vent disease. However, data suggests these combo treatments are not effective for people. Continuously, we found the combo treatment actually increase the risks of GI issues and death. The treatment above was recommended by our rabbit savvy, exotic specialist veterinarian. Please consult with your own veterinarian regarding treatments best suited to meet the needs of your herd.
" from http://luvlops.com/care/medicinechest/

Here is another linke too AND a link the discussion on it here on RT :)

http://www.hoppinherdofhares.com/ventdisease.html

vent-disease-t10623.html
 
Thank you :) Ya it's Dura-Pen that I have been using. You give one shot, wait 7 days then another shot, followed by another 7 days later then the last shot. The doe who started all of this actually looks even better from last night when I checked her. The other doe, again not as much so I will wait a few more days. I also noticed on three of my does (who where also under treatment) have a "white/dry/scab" spot right on top of their nose (all in the same spot on each other).. it looks a lot like a dry hairless spot of skin.. which is easily covered up by surrounding hair until you part it and you can see it. The odd thing is, some of the other does I treated (who where all in contact indirectly to the doe in this post) do not show this odd looking spot which I find it all really weird. And in all of this.. even from when I first spotted the problem in the chestnut doe, every doe's vent has been clean as a whistle.. I would think if it was vent, that at least one of them would have developed the swollen/scabs etc on the vent area? Not even the buck who was bred to the chestnut doe twice had shown anything on his gentiles nor any scabs on his face nor any of her two kits and any kits in contact with her kits lol. If the other doe who doesn't seem to be improving much, still has symptoms a full week after her last shot, I'm wondering if I should try ivermec? I don't really want to give her a 4th shot. No one has had any snot of any sort nor any sneezing of any sort.

Here is the doe with not much improvement:
1_1.jpg

2_1.jpg


here is that odd spot on one of my doe's nose:
Gwen.jpg
 
Some never show a single sign that's how a buck usually passes it on to multiple does or vis versa...or some one doesn't realize any kits born have to be treated to so now the whole litter is VD carriers that may or may not show themselves. Some have scabs on nose only or even on the area around the eyes only. Lesions can appear almost any where (any where there's expression of body fluids from what I've seen, never seen on legs/side/etc). The name comes from where it used to be picked up by breeding animals and noticed primarily in does (only seen in that is) but now, not so much.

Honestly, I would do another round of shots after thoroughly feeling them up for any signs of any thing else, wait 30 days after the last and if some thing comes back term cull. VD that is not treatable with pen g is going to take a vet visit and scrap check to see what will work. Plus the offspring will have the same issue most likely, if they catch VD pen g series will not treat and new owner will have to get vet work done to clear it up and by that time it could be a bigger resistance issue. It really stinks. This is more of an under use problem than over use problem with VD, topical treatment with on the sites or just a shot with no follow up to completely clear by several different people several different times to try to "fix" it made lots of carriers and those that did reproduce and never caught...well you can see where that goes.

There is a small chance it is some thing else, but doubtful. Again with out a vet visit...won't know exactly what will be effective. By the time a scrap comes back, the reproductive ability could be zilch then. The only other things I can think of that would cause similar is pasturella and staph, fungi can as well but pen wouldn't have been the least bit effective against it. Staph is very rapid spreading and pen g won't take care of it. Pasturella there are usually abscesses or snot before/during finding places like that. There's not really in depth studies of all possibilities of how things can show up though. I wish there was more common research done...but its a $$ racket.
 
yes they have been getting the right stuff for their gut bacteria and everyone has done just fine after the last shot. No one is having any snot or any sneezing/watery eyes/wet paws etc so it is not from snuffles. I did speak with a judge who is a long time breeder, ran by her what I used and how I treated them all for vent, she said everything I did was correct (wanted to make sure I was treating them properly). She said that by the 3rd shot, any signs of scabs should be cleared and she didn't think it was vent anymore and no real idea of what it is. She takes culls from breeders and processes them for dog food so she's seen everything under the sun. I decided to be safe, to remove both does from my herd. Both have been kept away from others so everyone else is fine. As far as the does with that odd looking spot on top of the nose, once I applied some anti fungal cream, it cleared up right away but still applying it once a day for 2 weeks. I did try anti fungal cream on the chestnut doe before shots but it never helped her. I did also remove the scabs but it was just red/irritated skin underneath (no ulcers). I am actually taking both does back to the breeder tomorrow so she can have a look and she's taking them back. Frustrating journey since August but I'll feel better having both does removed and just move forward. No one is being bred for a while so I can watch them after treatment.
 
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