What would you do-breeder selling 4 week old kits?

Myself and my friend have been having local animal sell/swap/shop events at our local tractor supply stores. Its a free thing that they let us do in there parking lot, and basically its everyone for themselves. We do not charge vendors or have any rules or parameters to participate. No one is responsible or liable for anyone elses transactions, and its all local breeders. Problem I ran into this weekend is a person selling 4 week old dutch kits. Overall, I do not want to loose any privileges or for our cause to get a bad name. Myself, I will not sell them that young. I just feel like some unsuspecting people bought them and probably didn't know any better. Her logic is always that well the mom can have a new litter in 30 days, so that must mean they can do ok on their own. I know there are conflicting views on when to wean, but I also know that most breeders will have a problem with this. It came up in discussion and to the point where our new rabbit club wanted to make sure that they were not being seen as any kind of sponsor for these events. I felt like they were very attractive to buyers because they were so little and cute, and that breeders with older kits were overlooked because of this too. This person is a friend of mine, and I just need to either be ok with her doing business her way and dealing with her own consequences or to find a way to stop her nicely, by showing her its illegal at that age or something. She sells day old chicks that she hatches too, and overall has a colony style bunny set up that she looks at from more of a naturalistic point of view.....how would you all handle it?

Law often vary according to city. In Huston, it maybe illegal to sell pets in a parking lot.

In Houston, Texas,[70][71]

Sec. 6-118. - Roadside and flea market sales.

(a) It is unlawful for any person to sell, trade, barter, lease, rent, give away, or display for a commercial purpose a live animal on a roadside, public right-of-way, commercial parking lot, or at an outdoor special sale, swap meet, flea market, parking lot sale, or similar event.

(b) This section does not apply to:

(1) An agent of a business that has a valid permit for a commercial pet service facility under section 6-121 of this Code;

(2) An event primarily for the sale of agricultural livestock such as hoofed animals or animals or fowl commonly raised for food, dairy, or fiber products; or

(3) A tax-exempt non-profit organization founded for the purpose of providing humane sanctuary or shelter for abandoned or unwanted animals.

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In San Antonio,

In San Antonio, Texas,[72]

Sec. 5-3. - Prohibiting sale of baby chicks, ducklings or other fowl and rabbits.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale, barter, lease, rent or give away on the condition that some other item is purchased, bartered, leased, or rented, any baby chicks, ducklings, other fowl less than three (3) weeks old, or rabbits less than eight (8) weeks old; except that this chapter shall not be construed as to prohibit the sale or display of such baby chicks, ducklings, or other fowl in proper breeder facilities or hatcheries or to prohibit the sale or display of such baby chicks, ducklings, or other fowl in stores engaged in the business of selling the same to be raised for commercial purposes.

(b) It shall be unlawful to color, dye, stain, or otherwise change the natural color of any baby chicks, ducklings, or other fowl or rabbits or to possess for the purpose of sale any baby chicks, ducklings, or other fowl or rabbits which have been so colored.

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I got that information from this site http://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Rabbit_sale_ ... e_US#Texas and I have no idea how accurate or up-to-date it is. You may need to call your city (I'd do it anonymously) and see what you can find.

macksmom98":1gpzh5ha said:

This person is a friend of mine, and I just need to either be ok with her doing business her way and dealing with her own consequences or to find a way to stop her nicely, by showing her its illegal at that age or something.

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First, you might want to do a quick Google search on whether there is an age limit. In some states a kit must be 8 weeks or older in order to be sold. If there is a regulation for your state then tell her she has to comply with the law.

If there are no regulations you can try talking to her and respectfully suggesting she wait until the kits are older. Don't mention that her cuter 4 week kits cut into the business of those with 8+ week kits. It will only come across as a complaint. Instead, focus on the fact that while 4 week old kits can be weaned from their mother, many problems can still come up. Another month without the stress of traveling to and from the swap, in and out of new cages, new family, new feed, new environment can get the kits into a state where they can handle those stresses. Also focus on the fact that a 4 week old kit that can't handle these stresses will likely die; and then she has ticked off customers.

Does she really want 3-4 people coming back to her the following week because her kits keep dying? Does she want to give a refund or replace the rabbit for free? Does she really want a reputation as the lady whose rabbits are crap? An extra month of feed and care might cost a little more; but that's nothing compared to having a bad reputation.

Finally, it's your (and your friend's) event. You can invite whomever you want. You can set any limits you want. If you don't want to be the bad guy you could ask the store to set some sort of age limit.

A couple people have spoke with her respectfully, but shes just unconventional and feels her way is ok. Shes in her 50's and is at an age where she doesnt want to take criticism and has a lot of experience under her belt (although her mortality rate is much higher than mine), so its hard for a 36 year old like me to say shes wrong. I think some people who don't know enough and do buy from here will likely just chalk it up to bad luck and may never complain. My concern is that it will get to a point where a lot of damage has been done before the complaints come in. She is the same friend who is heading up these events with me, and to be honest it was her idea to start with. So that is the predicament I am in.......we have discussed having a little meeting to brainstorm during our off time, so that we can put a few rules in place. Ill try to get the guidelines in writing by then, and not just for rabbits, for all animals so that she doesn't feel it was just based off of this. There will be 2 more events before the break, so I guess ill just let her do her thing until we can meet......kind of needed to vent on this one, with some people who would understand! I agree that the comment I made about her babies taking attention off the older ones would come across as complaining or even jealousy, and I would not repeat that to her. But it is a concern since we are all trying to sell and be responsible, its really tough to compete with a little 4 week old bunny!!! She has been very nice to keep her prices the same as mine and we both have different breeds of rabbits and help each other in some ways, so overall I have enjoyed the opportunity to do these with her. Its great to have a place for people to come see a variety of animals and pick them up that day, and we live in a rural area so I am thinking we probably dont have the same parking lot sale rules. The stores have all been really friendly and welcoming, which is also why I am concerned about loosing the opportunity to do it there.

Pet sales attract a different crowd than show or meat breeding. "Cuter is better" and "younger is better" have always been issues with pet buying, which is why legal regulations came into existence to begin with. I'm sure the same issue is faced with almost every species of domestic animal.

In my opinion, one would have to comply with state regulations, and if it is legal, so be it.

One could work to have laws changed, work to educate pet buyers of their opinion/ideals, or learn to look the other way.

We do this in various little towns, and I am looking for something that covers the whole state of TX. The above info is good but only pertains to Austin, Houston, San Antonio, and Ft Worth.....I know there has to be something somewhere.....

Seems like Texas state has no such laws.

You can call the department of agriculture and find out if there are any regulations for the state. The problem is, if you are doing it in different towns, you need to be aware of the regulations for each town. They may not have any but then again they might.

Yeah I am thinking that too, which can be good and bad. I love that government does not get as involved in things in TX and leaves more up to the cities to deal with, but then that can make it tougher to track down the regulations and leaves holes for irresponsible situations to occur. I know this practice of selling at 4 weeks is frowned upon by large and established breeders, and we even have one that showed up this weekend and stated her opinion, and it didn't do any good....

Hey macksmom98,
Thanks for the additional info on the situation. I think in the end this might just come down to the ugly part of the "free market" showing up from time to time. 999,999 people out of a million people might think its the worst idea ever to sell 4 week old kits like that; but unless there's a prohibition on it then all you can do is vent.

Do you know if there have been any complaints from someone she has sold to, or anyone who has bought a "very young" animal? Are there other people selling "very young" animals as well? If two or three other people are selling day old chicks or even 6 week old bunnies you can probably frame this as an issue regarding the long term prospects of the event.

My guess is these events are way more convenient for selling vs. a flyer at the feed store or an online posting. And you guys probably started this as an alternative to less effective forms of advertisements? Play that up. You guys need to keep this event going, so lets have some common sense rules. Perhaps someone out there knows of a set of rules for selling at their local swap meet? You could say you asked around on a rabbit website and someone passed along these rules. No sick animals, you can be required to leave if you have one; Animals must be kept securely; Rabbits must be 8 weeks, poultry X weeks, goats Y weeks; some other ones that make sense.

It also might be helpful to not bring up the age issue for a bit, before suggesting the rule. If she hears her rabbits are too young for a month and then there's a rule, she will probably take it as a personal attack (which she may do anyway). If she does react negatively, act like it's the smart business move. Say her rabbits will still sell at 8 weeks, especially if she's selling a small breed. Remind her "I" still sells most of my 8 week old rabbits. Frame it as people still want to buy a lionhead, angora, whatever she's selling, the age isn't going to make the difference (even if yes age makes a difference).

You could also "pretend like you're being devious"... Hey Jane Doe, you might not be able to bring the 4 week old kits with you but there's nothing preventing you from having pics on you phone and telling people hey I have even cuter bunnies at home... the group has an age limit for this event but we could meet up later and do business on these little guys. My guess is anyone who hasn't put the time and effort to learn that you shouldn't buy a 4 week old bunny; is more likely to buy a bunny on hand vs taking more time to meet up a second time to get a slightly younger bunny.

Another ploy that is possible is if there are two or three vendors who wait until 12 weeks or later (perhaps they are selling meat rabbits and it takes that long to reach butcher weight). They could suggest hey lets have a 12 week minimum. And then you could "compromise" at 8 weeks. Also there could be a different rule that negatively affects you but ultimately you could live with. (perhaps each animal needs to be in its own cage; or everyone needs to chip in and the group buys some cardboard animal boxes and any animal sold needs to go home in that. The event sells the box and uses the money to buy more boxes)

unless there's a law on the books...........your hands are tied.....

If you cannot find a law for Texas, you could make a set of rules for your event. Explain that these rules have been put into place for the health and well being of the animals being sold.

I can understand the concern for the rabbits but chicks and ducklings get sent through the mail at a day old all over this country. At that age they don't need to eat or drink (they are still absorbing their yolk for the first two days) so it's really the best age tbh to send them to their new home. I've purchased chicks like that many times over through the mail and at farm swaps. Rarely any losses.

Rabbits though? Frankly, I'd bring it up (and as you said, you did and she rejected that thought) and then let it go. It's not the law here (there is no regulation on kit age where I live) but I still wait until 8 weeks. Personal policy. I don't expect anyone else to follow that though. The feed store out here gets 4 - 6 week old kits all the time. It's just the age local breeders bring them out at (most of them are "old school"). They still rarely ever lose any though. Back when I first started out about 6 yrs ago, I even bought about 7 of these way too young rabbits as they are a "meat mutt" type rabbit. I didn't lose a single rabbit though there were sexing issues as they were at that Sex Change Fairy stage where you really couldn't tell.

I agree about chicks, I just put that in there to give everyone the whole picture. I am glad to hear they survived. If its just normal practice to wait 8 weeks or so but there really ok leaving at 4-6, then I will be happy to let it go. Just because most people do it that way is not a good enough reason. I had a longstanding breeder really upset about it, and that was the major cause for my concern moving forward, after the welfare of the animals. If they are usually ok then I will have to learn to let it go

That was for me though. If you have a serious moral issue with it, then don't because it will eat at you and eat at your friendship regardless. It seems to be pretty normal with older school breeders in my parts, but getting by is their priority and not exactly what is best for the animal. It is risky though, I wouldn't personally do it because I like to be able to make promises on my animals, but will the babies all drop dead? Nah. Especially not if the stock they're using generally doesn't have enteritis issues in weaning kits.

What you said is just enough to help me just let it go. I will not be adopting that practice and would not encourage it, but makes me feel better about selling next to her doing that, and allowing her to suffer the success or consequences of her decisions