Are all Harlequin Rex Muddy Looking?

I have pictures of Japanese Harlequin and they are super sharp, bright reds and black that dont bleed into each other but when I google HRs they are all burnt gingers, black and red and orange all mixed together.

And the breeder I have contacted has sent me some pictures of her, admittedly beautiful, burnt ginger harlequins.

But I wanted sharp reds and blacks darn it *stamps feet* and am now wondering, do Rex even come in that sharp a color or are all Rex Harlequins muddy looking?

Her Tri colors are to die for so maybe its just me reaching for the moon again?

I think it's because Harlequin rex are not a showable color so most people don't really focus on getting the markings right. tri-color is though if I remember right.

The most well supported theory I have heard, is that the difference between the Japanese harlequin breed and the brindled harlequins we regularly see in rex (and some other breeds) is the presence of the dutch gene, du.

The broken gene, En, is known to cause the harlequin pattern to bunch up into spots. Which is why rex tris look more "correct."
The dutch (and possibly vienna) genes may help it separate into checker pattern, or at least, more intensely colored patches.

That would make the du gene and suppression modifiers(or their lack) the cause of the white foot or white markings that have, to date, never been bred out of japanese harlequins.
Ideal japs may have a Dudu genotype, with enough suppression modifiers to make the white completely invisible.
Breeding two Dudu rabbits together will always produce some DuDu(no dutch genes, brindled), Dudu (one copy, which may or may not be visible on the coat, and dudu (likely to have visible white.)

Supporting facts:
From the American harlequin rabbit club website:

It appeared accidentally in the Belleville or Montmartre suburbs of Paris, and is obviously descended from Brabancon or Dutch..

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http://americanharlequinrabbitclub.weeb ... story.html

I have heard experienced harlequin breeders refer to the white in Japanese harlequins as "dutch-like white marks, or describe them as "appearing in all the same places that dutch marks will."

Finally, it's pretty well known that that breeding two well-marked harlequins together still tends to produce very mixed results, and that breeding poorly marked animals can still throw something great (with a lot of luck, and the right genes )

The du theory also helps explain why brindled rabbits are still regularly born to the harlequin breed, even to nicely marked parents.

I believe that most harlequin rex lines simply do not to have the dutch gene, which is very good thing for rex in general! The last thing rex breeders need to worry about is random dutch marks cropping up in other colors.

The consequence is that harli rex are more brindled than Japanese harlequins, but, that is OK, since harlequin is not showable in rex anyway, and brindled harlequins still make for just fine tris.
Now that I think about it, perhaps not having dutch genes to contend with can actually help improve tri spotting?? :? This needs looked into...

The vienna gene may cause a similar effect to dutch (I'm basing this on pics I've seen online, so it's pure speculation), but, that may explain why nicely marked harlequin lops seem to be a bit more common.

The burnt ginger part is just rufus modifiers.
My own japs are very washed out (burnt ginger, or even pale ginger) due to breeding with low rufous magpies. It's OK for me, since my japs are just working towards all the recessives I need to get a 100% magpie herd.
If you want nicer red color in harlequin rex, you can improve a line with high rufous castors, or good red rex.

Wow Zass! I thought I was a color gene fanatic, but I didn't know most of what you explained about the Rex harle question
And I have harles, tris, and even have a my first litter out of tri charlie doe so I can get ALL broken kits out of her
Thanks for giving me something more to think about and consider.

Me too on the THANKS Zass!!!

So I will go with the ones I have found - they are beautiful - and NOT wonder if there are better out there. This is such a special prezzie from me to me that I want it super right.

Yay, really excited now.

I think I just stumbled across the reason for the heavy brindling in harlequin rex!!
It IS more than just the absence of the du gene to create color banding.

The brindle pattern is being actively selected for.

Even brindling across the coat leads to even spotting when paired with the broken gene. Most stunning on booted broken.
For some really cool examples, look up gepard rex.

http://staldeskely.weebly.com/gepard-farvede.html

Adding harlequin genetics with strong even bands would ruin this effect. (And, I suspect, introduce more than just modifiers.)

How funny Zass, I like the sharp bands of red and black better than the spotted. I guess there is no accounting for taste. :lol: <br /><br /> __________ Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:36 am __________ <br /><br /> Now, without the Dutch gene, is it poss. to even get sharp bands of color? I shall go with the brindled and tri but if I could work tward color bands it would give me another nice project to keep me occupied. :lol:

GBov":3r54949m said:

How funny Zass, I like the sharp bands of red and black better than the spotted. I guess there is no accounting for taste. :lol:

__________ Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:36 am __________

Now, without the Dutch gene, is it poss. to even get sharp bands of color? I shall go with the brindled and tri but if I could work toward color bands it would give me another nice project to keep me occupied. :lol:

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I'd actually suggest playing with vienna over dutch in this case. It's only a hunch, but I suspect the two genes work nearly the same on harli pattern, someone has probably already bred it into rex or mini rex, and it would be MUCH easier for breeders to detect and get rid of later.
You have to keep in mind that not everyone agrees that du is what is behind the harlequin pattern. The persistent white marks that still show up are treated like a huge problem by some.
It might take a VERY long time to see rex with no dutch marks showing, and once you have it,
it would be almost immoral to sell rex with that gene. It may have a negative effect on tris.
I strongly doubt the damage would be limited to that.
People will cross anything to anything.
I tried explaining to a buyer why I would not sell pedigrees for my washed-out whitemarked jap does, because they were not a good choice for breeding to Japanese harlequins. It was rather clear to me by her line of questioning that she didn't understand anything I was saying, and she became quite angry with me for refusing.

As my grandad use to say Zass, "There's nowt so queer as folks!" :lol:

This is just me being clueless but what is vienna and how would one put it into Rex? Not going to do it mind, just curious.

As I have a doe that throws lovely bright red I will most likely keep back a buck (yay, another buck :roll: ) and see if I can just work on getting a deep rich red in the brindling and have lovely tris to look at as well.

Is it poss to breed for stripes without adding any new genes? Like say one has a wider brindled strip so keep it to breed?

Genetics kind of blow my mind a bit.

My youngest asked me the other day how we could get a rabbit with leopard spots. I cant even imagine how but it sure would be pretty. :lol:

I had an interesting kit born the other day and I thought it might pertain to this discussion.

This is a 3/4 rex kit. Not clean like a Harlequin but cleaner than most rex harlis. The thing about this litters dam is that she could possibly carry some type of white marking gene. Her granddam produced some odd kits with white feet and a few very small nose spots. Her dam has never done so however out of 27 kits.

Very very pretty! Will it have the rex coat?

I'm not sure yet.

GBov":pwwz5ykr said:

My youngest asked me the other day how we could get a rabbit with leopard spots. I cant even imagine how but it sure would be pretty. :lol:

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There was someone working on dalmatian Rex. It's pretty hard to get that broken pattern to spot like that in Rex, but is sure would be interesting. And I assume, showable, because a broken is still ab broken.