Mixing litters of juvenilles?

wow. 7 to 8 in 18x30?

My guys are in a 4' x 6' pen. 8 of them. never been a fight. they're coming on 12 weeks now. Until 2 weeks ago, Mama-san was in there, too. It was too crowded with her there, tho.

I don't think I'd want to wean at 4 weeks, either. mamma kept feeding the smaller ones until almost 8 weeks. Now they're all the same size...even RuntBunny who was only 1/2 the size of the others.

ah well. different strokes...
Good luck with them I look forward to hearing the progress on the rabbits and the farm

I'll be interested to hear how it works out for you. I'm wanting to increase my herd to "commercial" status (gradually!) and sell meat rabbits.

4'x6'?!? I can keep a couple of goats in a pen that size!

Before we jump on Cereshill for stuffing 7 - 8 fryers in an 18" x 30" cage, we should note his correction in a previous post that the cage is actually 24" x 36". This is still too small, IMO, but not quite as extreme as he lead us to believe at first.

I know you are trying to make a profit from your rabbits, CH, but I really do feel that rabbits are not an animal that you can easily factory farm. They are too high strung and susceptible to various forms of stress and stress-related ailments. I've been following your endeavours with interest and have noted the numbers of losses you have experienced. Some of that is likely due to the steepness of the learning curve and the rate at which you are trying to climb it, but I really do feel that the conclusions you are drawing are premature and supported by too little actual experience to be presented as "lessons". I'm sorry if this sounds harsh.

Maggie,
No problem---yes I am learning and will/have made mistakes. Part of why I like this forum is the opportunity to share/learn and get criticism. I can take it

For the record: we don't want ot be a factory farm; however I am seeking a hybrid model of natural rabbit that grows in a decent time frame--I can tell at this point that does not mean 8 weeks! As mentioned, we are on a 42 day breed back (more for some) and are trying to insure that condition of the doe is right rather than just time. Also, I am learning what characterisitics work for fryers; frankly that act quite different from older does/bucks and can do better in groups. We keep breeding does etc in sep cages. Our losses in Nov/Dec were due to weather, frozen waterers and some bad luck (one litter born on wire and a few that got out of the box). I would assume this to be somewhat normal over time...


thank you for hosting this site and for all of the fun/learning we share.
CH

I have no issue with fryers in groups .. in fact I have no issue with rabbits in groups if they are getting along .. I have no issue with more natural methods .. I wish you well but it's very hard for me not to worry about very rapid growth with livestock as I feel the livestock often suffers for our errors - and that's a shame

well...it's the question isn't it.

how fast is too fast?
how slow is too cost consuming?

where is the correct median between the two.

I do think that breeding for what is wanted is what people need to focus on.
- whether it be for fast growth, maintaining condition when raising a litter, temperament, health, colour, type or what not and then one has to decide where you draw the line. when is enough enough.

For those interested in preserving heritage breeds, heritage plants etc...there is a genuine concerns that some vital "stuff" will be lost. And we don't want to lose that stuff.

Other folks have different concerns. It can all fit together somehow. It's just a matter of learning from each other is it not?

I thought you might like to see photos of 2 successful rabbitries and how they are set up. They're quite different...one cages, the other pens. Maybe there will be some ideas you can incorporate.

http://www.larsonrabbitry.com/pictures Larson Rabbitry - run by 1 person, over 400 rabbits. He sells a LOT of rabbit..mainly meat, but also for RAW diet, and living critters for grow out or breeding. He sold the breeding stock this year because it was too much work for 1 man (and I believe his wife is in Med School and doing her Residency out of town..so commuting doesn't work when you have to care for 400 rabbits), and he has now set up a system of "farmers" who provide him with the fryers, which he butchers and sells. His business started small...and thru word of mouth, advertising on Craig's list and on local bulletin boards...it grew HUGE.

http://www.hare-today.com/about.php Tracy's (from HT) website pictures. Look down the page for a few pictures of her hoop houses and rabbit raising setup. She's wildly successful and profitable. Her website is excellent for learning the marketing techniques of what/where/how much

Lady - I agree with you - everybody can do what works with them ... my comment about growth wasn't about the rate of rabbit growth but the rate of expansion of an operation - I always worry about people taking on more than they can handle properly - partly because of the places I've been (I worked with a cruelty invesigator when she did hard calls for many years) and partly because even if it doesn't slide into cruelty and neglect it's often stressful - and that is not good for any animal - rabbit or human!

cereshill":395qxow6 said:

Brody,
We have a market and have processed since Sept. (irregularly). After taking 30 minutes with the first, I have it down to about 10 per bun.

I have three potential restaurants, hence I am working hard at feed and breeding regimen; our pricing is quite attractive as well.

BTW, the mixed group is doing very well--they settled in and eat and seem to live harmoniously.

__________ Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:41 pm __________

oh--bunny count:
4 bucks
25 does
14 juvenilles
19 popples

and four due this week...
oh, 4 more are bred for Jan deliveries...

Crazy eh?

don't even ask about the ducks, chickens, turkeys or geese.

__________ Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:48 pm __________

BTW, I have found Craigslist to be fantastic for cages; I am averaging $15 per cage. I don't need pans as the ducks eat the droppings and spilled feed...

Click to expand...

This is good information to know. I have a large feedout pen with some 10 week old kits, and another cage with 8 week old kits that needs to go soon. I can't get the 10 week old kits butchered yet because of the cold and the snow. I figure I can keep the 8 week old kits in their present cage for 1 more week, and get the older ones processed, but a pair out of that older group will be staying a week or two more until someone picks them up. I wasn't two worried about the older doe, as she is out of Pepper and about as "laid back" as one could get. But I am concerned a bit that the older buck might cause a problem.<br /><br />__________ Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:15 am __________<br /><br />

ladysown":395qxow6 said:

well...it's the question isn't it.

how fast is too fast?
how slow is too cost consuming?

where is the correct median between the two.

I do think that breeding for what is wanted is what people need to focus on.
- whether it be for fast growth, maintaining condition when raising a litter, temperament, health, colour, type or what not and then one has to decide where you draw the line. when is enough enough.

For those interested in preserving heritage breeds, heritage plants etc...there is a genuine concerns that some vital "stuff" will be lost. And we don't want to lose that stuff.

Other folks have different concerns. It can all fit together somehow. It's just a matter of learning from each other is it not?

Click to expand...

I agree completely. This is a great place for "cross learing" I would mix in some of the heritage breeds with my rabbit, The Zils and San Juans are as start. I find that most heritage breeds are rather had to find and expensive to purchase. It is too bad ther are not some breeders close Who could "rent " me a buck for a breeding or two. The trouble one always runs into there, is that if one even would find such a breeder, both of us would have qualms about the safety of exposing our stock to the others.

It is a shame, too. I have found that there are rabbit breeders all over, some rasing heritage stock, but because they don't show, or belong to an organization, sometimes even their neighbors don't know they have rabbits. I need to start talking to the feedstore guy, I guess.

Farming anything is work and stress period. The growout pens sound fine and at that age the fryers do fine. They are not in them for long anyways, we are talking weeks not months or years. Farming is the only profession/businesss that is expected to buy their supplies at retail and sell their product for wholesale. There are many groups harassing and spreading a lot of false info.This term factory farm implies terrible things are done to animals. The majority of legitimate farmers are trying to balance proper care/concern for the animals along with making a living. This is very hard to do with some of the older style techniques. For the most part farmers have a huge investment of time and money in their stock and wouldn't dream of abusing or stressing them out as this obviously would affect their income bigtime. A farmer has every reason to follow good animal husbandry skills and every reason not to abuse them. Most farmers do respect the heritage breeds but also need to improve as todays consumer demands constant cheap supply of their food.Its interesting then that the consumer will then turn around and badmouth the farming techniques used to raise that food. Now I am not going to ignore the fact that yes there is abuse or neglect due to owner stress or getting in over their heads,these types for the most part are not true farmers and knew nothing about animal raising in the first place. :? :?

We are hellbent on raising quality. I set my prices and let people pay. You can be a price taker or a price maker---I work high end retail (3rd generation) so I know a niche business. I am not the smartest guy in the state of Washington--and not the dumbest either.
Most folks in my farm class last year are price takers and in a niche area--that isn't going to bring success. I ask $15-20 per bunny (alive) as a juvenille (5-8 weeks)and don't seem to have a problem selling them. I sold does two weeks ago at $25.
On my schedule of 5 litters of 6 that is ~$500 gross per doe. I figure $150 in inputted cost for that group. Hardware costs of cage/water/feeder of $25--nest boxes are free from neighbor.
I can live with that kind of number. again, all of us have to decide what we want and what works for us.

and the difference between a price taker and a price maker is what?
I'm confused.

I set my prices knowing what I should be able to get for my bunnies. I don't want to rip people off, but I do want to get paid what I think my bunnies are worth.

A price taker is what most commodity crop producers become; also many folks underprice their product and do not account for their labor. All I am suggesting is that I and you should ask and receive a premium price to reflect the work, care and quality of your rabbits and or other goods.
We as a society have fallen for ever cheaper goods--not ever better!

surely you also have to set your price at a point the market will bear ...

so are you saying the difference is that a price taker works with the amount offered, whereas the price maker says "I want this much"?

There needs to be a balance between the two I think.

I can sell a whole whack of $10 rabbits and that's what a fair amount of people want.
But I'd have to raise out a whole lot of rabbits to make ends meet.
So... I price my rabbits according to what I think they are worth.

For babies
Crosses are $10 regardless of breed.
Mini rex start at $15 and go up depending on quality
Holland lops start at $20 ditto
Harlequins start at $25 ditto
New Zealands start at $15 'cause mine are real rough yet....

Proven adults rarely go for less than $30.

I'll drop the Harle's and the NZ's briefly at 8-10 weeks if I just want them gone. But I'd rather raise them out for myself then sell them too low.

As I get better at raising show quality kits, my prices will go up.

I can't "bear" the prices at the grocery store...yet it makes no difference.In between the producer and the consumer are the "price makers". They trade on futures and expect to make a profit no matter what. Now because we don't have "rabbit futures" we as producers should be able to make the price of our product and still not "rip anyone off". Or is that in a perfect world? lol

it's an interesting question isn't it?

I suppose you are absolutely right - for food we have to eat so can be at the price makers mercy (or lack there of)

when I speak about what the market will bear I mean I can't afford to have the thousands of rabbits I would if I never rehomed anybunny ... therefore as much as I'd like to charge $300 minium and recoup all the basic costs of bring a rabbit into my program if that was my adoption fee I'd never adopt one for that ...

I think all you need is a "gimmick" and maybe those rabbits could be sold for a lot more! An example is in the dog world. In the recent past someone bred a standard poodle to a retriever and made up a ridiculous name for them while at the same time making huge claims as to their abilities to meld into the average household. They were charging from 1000 to 1500 and more for those mutts.People were lining up to pay. Without getting into my personal feelings,the claims made by sellers struck a chord with people who responded by not questioning the price and buying the "product". Now someone please come up with something for the bunnies!!!!!lol<br /><br />__________ Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:32 pm __________<br /><br />ok I just realized that this has become a complete hijack of the op.Sorry, perhaps more suited to the rabbit ramblings or raising for pet market/meat rabbits forum?

I've mixed juveniles of varying ages often, have a cage of Thrianta crosses with three Mini Rex right now with no problems. Their small though, 9 in a 30x36 cage, and their inside because they were doing poorly in the cold and I didn't want to lose any so their in the heated basement. Outside I have 4 Florida White Jr's in a 3x5 Flemish cage, Florida Whites are fur chewers, they need extra room and lots of hay or they will munch on each other. I really hate it when they strip each others face right down to the skin. I'm claustophobic myself, so here even the Mini Rex does have a 30x36 cage, bucks in 2x2 or 18x30, but my goals are different than yours. I don't have a problem with your methods, if they work for you great, in your place I'd try to get my hands on a Champagne d Argent buck to cross in, if I was working with crosses or mixes. Things to watch for in small grow out cages, make certain everyone is getting enough food and water, that was a problem I would have with my larger breeds, always seemed to be one or two that was getting nosed out and lost body mass or got dehydrated. Keep an eye on ammonia levels, particularly if all your grow out pens are in one area, it can build up fast with that many animals. Ammonia can make them sick quick. I know your working with different crosses, many of the commercial breeders cross NZW's to Californians and get that first gen with hybrid vigor, I've seen that myself, bigger faster growing fryers, something to think about. I crossed a Creme d Argent buck on a Satin Angora doe once, kits were monsters and outgrew my Flemish litter of the same age for the first 12 weeks. I hope you continue to be successful, not a lot of money in rabbits here, unless your able to market to the urban areas.