Not sure if you would call this a colony?

Hi,

I have posted in a different section of the forum on my topic, so the post may sound familiar. I thought I would try this section & see what others may have to say.

I have 3 puppy pen wire enclosures in the house with me, each in a rectangular shape with the back of each pen against the wall, so they are in a line with a small amount of space between them. I currently have 2 Mini Lops in each enclosure, 1 doe & 1 buck. This is why I am not sure that you would call this a colony?

They are just my beloved pets of various colors. I'm not into meat or showing.

Anyway, I'm trying to get them to breed, but in just over a month, I have not seen one mating during the day & they just seem happy & content to be together.
They snuggle, groom each other & just chill basically. There is no chasing, mounting or bullying going on at all. We are in the second month of Autumn here.

Occasionally I will see one of the bucks sniff the does tail & then he just sort of stops & looks like he thinks to himself - no not ready. I take it they know by the does scent when they are ready to mate which must be the natural way in nature.

I have a nest box in each enclosure but when I put hay in there, one of them or both I'm not sure, soils it, so I'm not sure what to do, so as to be prepared in case one of the does kit in the night when I wasn't expecting it. I think one doe may be in kit as her droppings have become larger, but I can't be sure that any of them are in kit. It certainly would have helped if I had of actually seen a mating, especially in the beginning.

The only idea I can think of is to see if the doe starts to make a nest, when I put a bit of nesting hay in the enclosure, but so far they just nibble on it.

With them being content together in couples I wonder, should I seperate them at some point or not, as I don't see why the buck would suddenly turn nasty & kill newborn kits.
That doesn't go along with nature to me, that they would do that, otherwise I would imagine instead of being the protectors that they are in nature, they would become destroyers & would suddenly become an enemy to the doe.

They certainly seem to be more content, when they are in a buck & doe pairing, than when they are kept on their own or even does kept together.


Approx. ages are:

couple 1 - doe 12mths, buck 4mths

couple 2 - doe 5mths, buck 12mths

couple 3 - doe 6mths, buck 18mths


Any advice would be welcome, especially if anyone else has been in the same boat with their bunnies.



Thanks Honeybunnies :bunnyhop:


:all-ears:

Couple 3 should be old enough to mate.. barely. The others are too young.

There have been others who have been able to keep a doe and buck together, as long as the pen/cage they are in is large enough and has enough hiding places and shelves and such.

Breeding can happen within seconds. As long as they are together, you should always be expecting kits. If a doe kindles and the buck is still in there with her, you can expect another litter in another month. Does are usually extremely receptive shortly after kindling. A buck will sometimes try to breed a doe WHILE she is in the process of kindling.

honeybunnies":2g5ngwfd said:

Occasionally I will see one of the bucks sniff the does tail & then he just sort of stops & looks like he thinks to himself - no not ready. I take it they know by the does scent when they are ready to mate & until then they do not harrass them, which must be the natural way in nature.

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He's probably just sampling her perfume. Bucks are usually ready to "harass" does at any time, whether the does are interested or not. Does do not go into "heat"; they are induced ovulators. They release eggs some hours after breeding, in response to the stimulation of breeding.

I don't know much about the mating habits of cottontails.

Syberchick70":2g5ngwfd said:

Couple 3 should be old enough to mate.. barely. The others are too young.

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Actually, a 4-month-old buck is often ready to do the job successfully. As long as they have descended testicles, you can assume they are ready and able. A 5-month-old doe, again, often ready and able.

honeybunnies":2g5ngwfd said:

With them being content together in couples I wonder, should I seperate them at some point or not, as I don't see why the buck would suddenly turn nasty & kill newborn kits.

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Strange things can happen when a doe has kits. Sometimes a doe will kill her own kits in response to something she sees as a threat. Killing her own kits to prevent their being eaten alive by a rat, for instance.

Question: What are your plans for your rabbits? You don't do meat or shows, so what are your plans for the kits?

Miss M":s5688x0h said:

Actually, a 4-month-old buck is often ready to do the job successfully. As long as they have descended testicles, you can assume they are ready and able. A 5-month-old doe, again, often ready and able.

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Just stating what I've mostly read here. Generally speaking, I've seen folks say that a buck isn't ready until about 6 months. I know that the little buck in my litter had desended testicles at 8wks, and started spraying too. I wouldn't count on him being ready to breed though.

His daddy was with a doe for 3 months before producing a litter (at about 6 months of age). No harm in trying though.

I have some with brown eyes & I'm trying to get blue eyes going. So depending on results, I may keep a couple of the does for blue eye purposes & I would sell the rest of the kits. I tend to sell them within 2 to 3 days of advertising them online. So they are intended as pets. Often other breeders buy them from me too, if it's a colour they are wanting.

Syberchick70":2r7rtr0b said:

I know that the little buck in my litter had desended testicles at 8wks, and started spraying too. I wouldn't count on him being ready to breed though.

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People have gotten litters from bucks as 8 weeks.

You can't count on a buck becoming ready at that age, but if you see testes and spraying, you certainly shouldn't count on him NOT being able to!!!


I just got a litter from 14 week old buckling. (Imp)

I've never waited 6 months for a buck to breed. There might have been one or 2 in the past that didn't accomplish it until that long. Those often proved to be poor breeders all around anyway. My little lilac ermine ND, Kuwa, is driving me nuts right now because he's around 8months with only 2 successful breedings and no viable kits despite being housed with does for weeks to months at a time. Otherwise they are easily capable by 4months. Quite a few by 3months. Occasionally some by 8weeks. Many people quote older ages because they don't want to stress a young buck and make him timid or they feel they will get smaller litters from just maturing bucks. Pick the right does and it's really not a problem.

Bucks housed constantly with does often chill about harassing them for breeding. Instead of being ready to mount anything they will learn to check the doe for readiness after she shuts them down enough times. Bucks who don't learn this can make a doe quite miserable and even aggressive. I had to stop housing my mini rex in pairs because the does would get violent to other rabbits and sometimes humans due to the level of stress of a harassing buck. The ND seem to have less issue with this and I've been frequently leaving pairs together. Some of the larger, more laid back breeds also did fine in pairs but they required too much cage space per pair and it was more space and cost effective to just make full colonies with several does.

Because of the reduced drive to mate from being with a doe all the time you are less likely to see a buck cover a doe. Starting them young increases this because they will make a lot of half hearted attempts before the occasional success that eventually gets her pregnant. The first day they are together or at 8weeks old I mark down that I put them together. I put the nest box in according to that date and wait. If I separate them I mark down that date so I know the last date I could get kits. The less the nest box is in there the better. They like to turn them in to litterboxes when they aren't ready to use them for nesting. You will have to clean them frequently. Does may give you no warning before making a nest. They might be acting completely normal or even dig everything out of the box and the one day you don't replace it you end up finding kits in the morning. It is a problem with keeping pairs instead of controlled breeding. If they are on a solid surface and the kits can't get through the wire odds are they won't die even if you or the doe mess up the box. Just scoop the whole nest in to a box with a clean layer of bedding or nesting material and put it where the doe had the kits. They usually figure it out or after a few hours try to set the doe over the kits so she knows how to relieve the milk pressure and will repeat it later. Carefully so she doesn't fight you and cut a kit with a toenail. Bucks don't usually harm kits on purpose but things can happen while they are trying to breed the doe if she's still building a nest around them or sometimes not even done having them. I found this problem to be rare with mine and don't worry about it.

Yep, the accidental litters we had, when we were unable to butcher a litter of growouts... they got started at 15 weeks. We started seeing pulled fur, and separated rabbits as we could. The first litter was born to a 19-week-old doe, and we had four more litters over the next several weeks, including one from the mother of the bunch.

The whole 6- to 7-month-old thing may have been from widespread standard commercial practices for a while now? Some members here are finding that younger mothers tend to be better mothers, though. Not that all older ones are bad moms, not by a long shot.

Miss M":3ey5wg4v said:

There have been others who have been able to keep a doe and buck together, as long as the pen/cage they are in is large enough and has enough hiding places and shelves and such.

Breeding can happen within seconds. As long as they are together, you should always be expecting kits. If a doe kindles and the buck is still in there with her, you can expect another litter in another month. Does are usually extremely receptive shortly after kindling. A buck will sometimes try to breed a doe WHILE she is in the process of kindling.

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__________ Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:31 pm __________

Sorry I tried to do a quote & the whole page came out! I'm still learning to use the site! ***I fixed it for you. --MSD

I wanted to quote the second paragraph by Miss M "Breeding can happen within seconds" etc.
I certainly wouldn't want those things that are in that paragraph to happen.

As everyone has different opinions & experiences on here it can get a little difficult to know exactly what to do, but I guess that's what makes it interesting.

I am wondering what the opinion of akane is on that paragraph, if you would like to comment, as you seem to have been in the same boat as I, so to speak.

We are all friends here oxo

It's just opinions I'm comparing. There's no favoritism!

Thank you to those of you that have replied thus far & certainly more opinions are most welcome!

I'm not sure what problem you have with that paragraph? You do want them to breed? If things go right the buck hits the mark within seconds and rabbit intercourse lasts a whole .5-1second. That means if you don't separate them before birth she's pretty much guaranteed to be pregnant before you find the kits and will have another litter in 4weeks. The current litter gets weaned a bit early.

There is a technique called "palpitating" where you try and feel the embryos inside the doe and is how you know she is pregnant and even how far along she is once you get good at it

Unless you want to wean the kits at 4 weeks and your does to have litter after litter you should plan to remove the bucks

Do your rabbits already have a litterbox to use? If not you can try giving them one in the hopes they won't use the nestbox as a toilet

Rabbits poop when they eat so instead of putting hay in the nestbox try using straw and put their hay rack at the other end of their enclosure near their litterbox, or hanging above it

Zass":30e8suiu said:

Syberchick70":30e8suiu said:

I know that the little buck in my litter had desended testicles at 8wks, and started spraying too. I wouldn't count on him being ready to breed though.

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People have gotten litters from bucks as 8 weeks.

You can't count on a buck becoming ready at that age, but if you see testes and spraying, you certainly shouldn't count on him NOT being able to!!!


I just got a litter from 14 week old buckling. (Imp)

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Oh I know. Fortunately, I did separate out the little rascal just a week or so before I noticed 'dangly bits' on him. I DID allow him to run around (floor time) with momma just a day or two before I noticed his 'level of maturity', so I'm really hoping her current nesting behavior is just... 'wishful thinking'. <br /><br /> __________ Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:34 am __________ <br /><br />

Miss M":30e8suiu said:

The whole 6- to 7-month-old thing may have been from widespread standard commercial practices for a while now? Some members here are finding that younger mothers tend to be better mothers, though. Not that all older ones are bad moms, not by a long shot.

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Speaking of which... what is the youngest people are now comfortable with breeding a doe for the first time? That little doe I purchased will be just under 5 months old when she is delivered to me. I asked the breeder about possibly breeding her to one of her very nice bucks before she delivers her (before I knew how young she is), but I was told 'Oh, she's just 3 months old! Far too young to breed'. I agree, 3 months old is too young, but almost 5 months old??

I don't know whether to ask her to 'try' it with her, or just wait it out since it would likely add to the doe's stress level and I will have to keep her in isolation for a month after I get her anyway....

I breed my NZ does for the first time at five months. I have yet to have one fail to kindle.

honeybunnies":3ivps2q3 said:

Sorry I tried to do a quote & the whole page came out!

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If you are not already in "Reply mode", and highlight a part and then hit Quote, it just quotes the entire post. You need to hit "Reply" first, then scroll down to the post you want to quote from, highlight the part you want, and then hit Quote.

honeybunnies":31j0dycm said:

I wanted to quote the second paragraph by Miss M "Breeding can happen within seconds" etc.
I certainly wouldn't want those things that are in that paragraph to happen.

As everyone has different opinions & experiences on here it can get a little difficult to know exactly what to do, but I guess that's what makes it interesting.

I am wondering what the opinion of akane is on that paragraph, if you would like to comment, as you seem to have been in the same boat as I, so to speak.

We are all friends here oxo

It's just opinions I'm comparing. There's no favoritism!

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No worries! You will not offend me by asking someone else's opinion on something I said. There are many breeders on here who are way more experienced than I am. I'm much more interested in you getting good information than I am in me being "right".

Syberchick70":31j0dycm said:

Speaking of which... what is the youngest people are now comfortable with breeding a doe for the first time? That little doe I purchased will be just under 5 months old when she is delivered to me. I asked the breeder about possibly breeding her to one of her very nice bucks before she delivers her (before I knew how young she is), but I was told 'Oh, she's just 3 months old! Far too young to breed'. I agree, 3 months old is too young, but almost 5 months old??

I don't know whether to ask her to 'try' it with her, or just wait it out since it would likely add to the doe's stress level and I will have to keep her in isolation for a month after I get her anyway....

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I think OneAcreFarm starts trying her young does at around 14 weeks, but they frequently don't breed until somewhere between 16 and 18 weeks. So... 4 - 4 1/2 months.

Other members have recently been starting theirs between 4 and 5 months, and finding they tend to have bigger litters, fewer deaths, better nests, and fewer mistakes. Odd, but true.

Miss M":2g5qc1ij said:

I think OneAcreFarm starts trying her young does at around 14 weeks, but they frequently don't breed until somewhere between 16 and 18 weeks. So... 4 - 4 1/2 months.

Other members have recently been starting theirs between 4 and 5 months, and finding they tend to have bigger litters, fewer deaths, better nests, and fewer mistakes. Odd, but true.

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I thought I had remembered reading that...
Well, I may ask the breeder to see if the little doe is receptive before she brings her to the show.
I'm worried that she will think poorly of me for it though

I let the doe decide. When I start noticing some mood changes and behavior that might be the result of hormones or desire to breed then I put them with a buck. For netherlands that is often within a week of turning 3 months. A little older for larger breeds. The does continue to fill out even when carrying a litter and have no more problems than older does provided you feed them right. I also breed mine back to back more frequently than others. It depends on the doe though. Unlike the breeds I had for meat that barely showed a sign of being bred repeatedly the ND sometimes pluck themselves too bald or look rather scrawny after giving birth and having a low hanging belly full of milk. I tend to give them more time between litters. Although I just let Hezaa breed right away for her 3rd litter after a large break between her first and second litter. Luckily she did not spend an entire week pulling more and more fur to pack in to an ever increasing nest.

akane":2mml9c8t said:

I'm not sure what problem you have with that paragraph? You do want them to breed? If things go right the buck hits the mark within seconds and rabbit intercourse lasts a whole .5-1second. That means if you don't separate them before birth she's pretty much guaranteed to be pregnant before you find the kits and will have another litter in 4weeks. The current litter gets weaned a bit early.

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Thanks MSD for your assistance! It looks like I have got it right this time


I will quote the bit in that paragraph that concerned me akane.

Miss M":2mml9c8t said:

If a doe kindles and the buck is still in there with her, you can expect another litter in another month. A buck will sometimes try to breed a doe WHILE she is in the process of kindling.

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I'm not wanting to treat my pet doe's like that akane, that's all