Linebreeding for type

Sorry for the quality of the photo ... it is a snapshot, but really shows the conformation of this rabbit. This is my best Belgian Hare so far. I bred this buck myself. He is 6 mos old. I am happy with his color, but I absolutely love is type. What are my best options to fix this type in my line without eroding the genetic health of my rabbits?

Natural pose: (He does stand on his tip toes naturally, but never in front of the camera)

I would line breed him for a couple generations, then do an out cross to the best type that you have at that point. See where you stand with those kits and then if needed to breed the best of those kits back to him to really set the type.

I don't have a mate for him (Albany). I could make Albany a half sister with his mother or a niece with his sister, but I am really not excited about the second foundation buck I own and would use for that. He has many qualities, but type isn't one of them.

What about line breeding Albany's parent and crossing Albany back to his mother?

Linebreeding is a totally new thing for me. At one point you will come to the end of the line, so to speak, and then what? Cross to a completely unrelated rabbit and potentially ruin a line?

Line breeding can continue indefinitely. Just choose the most "perfect" and
breed "up and down" from that. You'll have opposing opinions on this method
of breeding rabbits, or anything else for that matter.

I tell everyone who wants something "not-related" as the sire. An outstanding
parents' genetic make-up is reduced 50% with an unrelated mating. You've
lost half of what you're trying to keep.

Makes no sense to me.... Continual outcrossing add too many unknowns.

If I remember right with linebreeding it's best to breed out then breed back in and do this for a while until you are satisfied. I haven't done it myself but I've heard about other people doing it.

Simply gorgeous!

grumpy":2waaft06 said:

Line breeding can continue indefinitely. Just choose the most "perfect" and
breed "up and down" from that. You'll have opposing opinions on this method
of breeding rabbits, or anything else for that matter.

I tell everyone who wants something "not-related" as the sire. An outstanding
parents' genetic make-up is reduced 50% with an unrelated mating. You've
lost half of what you're trying to keep.

Makes no sense to me.... Continual outcrossing add too many unknowns.

Click to expand...

I agree with Grumpy , rabbits aint humans so forget the stigma .... Just breed him to your best does regardless of relation that'll bring you the best results in the shortest amount of time.

As long as you aren't getting sick , weak or genetically mutated rabbits .... its perfectly fine.

Ramjet":39o1hcl5 said:

grumpy":39o1hcl5 said:

Line breeding can continue indefinitely. Just choose the most "perfect" and
breed "up and down" from that. You'll have opposing opinions on this method
of breeding rabbits, or anything else for that matter.

I tell everyone who wants something "not-related" as the sire. An outstanding
parents' genetic make-up is reduced 50% with an unrelated mating. You've
lost half of what you're trying to keep.

Makes no sense to me.... Continual outcrossing add too many unknowns.

Click to expand...

I agree with Grumpy , rabbits aint humans so forget the stigma .... Just breed him to your best does regardless of relation that'll bring you the best results in the shortest amount of time.

As long as you aren't getting sick , weak or genetically mutated rabbits .... its perfectly fine.

Click to expand...

JMHO -- if you are going to line breed, ruthless culling of any stock that have any defects is a must,- as this type of breeding will reveal hidden defects as well as strengths -and give you an opportunity to condense and "set" positive traits.

Thank you for the feedback. I had planned on using the linebreeding chart in the ARBA guidebook, but wanted to know if I could/should restructure the chart to preserve the type of this particular buck.

I am not opposed to linebreeding. It is essential in developing a breed and is at the root of all breeds we have today. However, linebreeding (a form of inbreeding) does not only condense desirable traits but also undesirable ones. Of course, animals showing undesirable traits will be taken out of the equation, but since EVERYTHING is based on genes, there are many undesirable traits which will not be visible to a breeder, but show up later, like a hereditary susceptibility to cancer, or a disorder of the blood or any one of the organs. It is also known that fertility and fitness can declines with repeated inbreeding.

In regard to the effects of inbreeding/linebreeding, rabbits ARE like humans, because we are all mammals, all animals, and genetics apply equally to all life on earth. Inbreeding is not socially accepted in human society, but on a physical plain it would have the same positive and negative consequences as it has in animals.

I think a linebreeding project is very interesting, but while I may succeed in producing beautiful rabbits, I may also create the heart break of these beautiful rabbits succumbing to hip dysplasia or a heart or kidney problem when in their prime. or they simply may not have longevity.

Actually even in humans inbreeding doesn't frequently lead to problems. A study was done in a country with common first cousin marriages and no increased health problems were found. Inbreeding is only a problem in any mammal when you take a tiny population and allow everything with a health problem to breed. As long as you keep going forward and not cross animals with health defects you should get more predictably healthy animals. I would prefer though to start with 2 bucks and 3 does only lightly related to make sure if something bad is found in a line I have another to cross to for a generation. Once you have established a group without any major problems displayed in all of them you can just breed those forever working on the details.

They did a study once- inbred full rabbit siblings to each other for 18 generations with no ill effects- rabbits can handle a lot of inbreeding, as can mice and rats. I myself have inbred Silvers for many gens- its the curse of having a rare breed- can't just pop out to a show and buy new blood. I fixed type on my Floridas by repeated mother-son, father daughter and full sibling crosses, without ill effects. I have one old healthy FW girl here still, she's probably 6- still hopping. Most of my Silvers make it to 7-8, and die of congestive heart failure, and some of them were so tight they were their own granpa. So breed him to his sister and mother, keep the best and breed them back to him, cull hard. I find that a mother son cross tends to produce some good- some middle of the road, full siblings its often very good or very bad, seems like no middle of the road. I've worked with a number of rare breeds- and what I've found is that many have inbred traits that are very hard to get away from- Silvers are canaries- any ammonia they start sneezing, they must have good air quality. Lilacs are heat sensitive- they can't take the heat, or the cold- tend to lose condition in the winter and stroke in the summer. Satin Angoras have poor shoulders, and pinched hindquarters, sometimes one or both, and foul tempers. Find out what it is that Belgians have a problem with, so you know what to watch for, and you can try not to double up on it.

BC Belgians":vh7lvlgw said:

I don't have a mate for him (Albany). I could make Albany a half sister with his mother or a niece with his sister, but I am really not excited about the second foundation buck I own and would use for that. He has many qualities, but type isn't one of them.

What about line breeding Albany's parent and crossing Albany back to his mother?

Linebreeding is a totally new thing for me. At one point you will come to the end of the line, so to speak, and then what? Cross to a completely unrelated rabbit and potentially ruin a line?

Click to expand...

What a stunningly beautiful animal.
Yes, backcrossing is the term used when one pairs offspring back to its parent. Once you have daughters from that 1st backcross of AlbanyxMom, begin backcrossing his daughters to him. Continue selecting kits with the "Albany" type.
How to open the genepool back up later without ruining the line... that one depends on how much cage space, time, and funds you have. If you bring in an unrelated rabbit, ideally you'd be able to work with that animal making an inbred line also to find its faults. Once you feel comfortable that it is a good line, as decent in conformation as you can get, good mothering instincts, and of robust health, then I'd consult a few publications on conserving rare breeds. There are a few great articles on sheep scenarios that I especially enjoyed, where they take four unrelated females and a male and keep a ram from each doe and they make their pairings from there.
Rabbits however are said to be more "inbreeding tolerant", and there are anecdotes of breeds being started from incredibly tight gene pools, or successful rabbit operations starting with 2 animals that haven't outcrossed in 20 or 30 years.

akane":199ng50d said:

Actually even in humans inbreeding doesn't frequently lead to problems. A study was done in a country with common first cousin marriages and no increased health problems were found. Inbreeding is only a problem in any mammal when you take a tiny population and allow everything with a health problem to breed. As long as you keep going forward and not cross animals with health defects you should get more predictably healthy animals.

I would prefer though to start with 2 bucks and 3 does only lightly related to make sure if something bad is found in a line I have another to cross to for a generation. Once you have established a group without any major problems displayed in all of them you can just breed those forever working on the details.

Click to expand...

most of the "inbreeding stigma" in animal husbandry, is from ignorant/ or greedy animal breeders breeding everything, trying to rapidly develop large numbers of breed / sale stock, and from "lazy breeders" who do the "colony experiment" with out knowledgeable breeding selection, and culling of all less perfect animals.

If your breeding program has a lot of good animals as a result of your breeding, you can always breed up from there, even if you have some "junk" also, just make sure you don't breed any "junk" - I would be hesitant to cull a line, just because a cross produced some abnormalities, - I have always prefered to breed up from what I have, as long as it is mostly very good. Bringing in new stock, is a gamble in a lot of ways, and-- you never know how they will cross with what you have.

I love your hares! I don't know anything about them, but I agree with the others that linebreeding is a great way to fix type while culling anything that isn't going in the right direction. I totally understand the concern about bad traits popping up, but it is possible with total outcrosses to have health problems appear, too. For example, I had splay legs in a completely unrelated Mini Lop breeding. I knew it wasn't environmental because at that point I had raised years of litters in the same set-up/same feed/etc. without ever having issues. I did test breedings and traced it back to the offender- it happened every time to 1-2 kits. The outcross also produced type that was all over the place. I was bummed because I was attached, but I ended up culling all of them and kept it moving. Best of luck!

michaels4gardens":310bynwu said:

Bringing in new stock, is a gamble in a lot of ways, and-- you never know how they will cross with what you have.

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I brought in a new line out of Arizona earlier this year, and crossed the buck, a chocolate otter, to a broken black out of my lines... the doe lost a few kits from the litter (her production has been falling off and she rarely throws show quality kits, which is why I chose her as a test breeding) and I got three really nice bodied rabbits.

But (according to my rabbit partner) they are broken Silver Martens and a who-knows-what. :x

She raises Satin otters and said that the same thing happened in her barn when she started with otters. She says to expect to work with them for two to three years before all the weird colors get weeded out.

At least there wont be a shortage of meat here!