URGENT! How Many Can a Doe Foster?

My NZ doe kindled her kits on the wire early this AM. 7 out of 10 were alive. She didn't attempt to build a nest or pull fur. I pulled some of her fur and, after warming the kits, put them in the nest box with her fur. By this afternoon two more had died, and the rest were still cold, but moving, so I am warming them again.

My other NZ doe kindled 7 healthy kits today, and built an awesome nest. Would 5 kits be too many for her to foster? Or should I attempt to return them to their mother's box?

Both are first time does.

A good doe might be able to nurse 12. The warmest and most comfortable place for all of the kits will be in the good nest. It might be possible to return the whole nest to the inexperienced doe once a day for feeding. Or else hold her in your lap for feeding any kits that aren't getting full bellies from the good nest builder.

I dont like my does to feed more than 8 but have had a girl feed 11, just give them more time to recover condition before breeding back.

I wouldn't give up on the clueless doe.

Try swapping kits and put the 7 healthy ones in to the clueless does nest to see if she is just a slow starter. I would also keep plucking her belly fur as well to try and stimulate her milk.

I practically denuded Cardamom's underbelly, making a better nest for the kits. Hopefully they will keep each other warm enough, and hopefully her instincts will kick in. If it's obvious by their bellies that they haven't been fed in 48 hrs, I'm guessing I need to try on foster them?

Have you felt to see if she has milk? If she has it, holding her over the nest once or twice for feeding time might help her figure out what she's supposed to do.

I cant try that, but she really hates being handled, and gets pretty stressed out.

Phacelia":2ow6b67h said:

I cant try that, but she really hates being handled, and gets pretty stressed out.

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I'd suggest holding her down with one hand and reaching the other hand under her belly, even if she doesn't like it. You will know if there is milk in there, especially since she hasn't fed them.
You were able to pluck her, so you must be able to touch there.

It won't stress her more than any other type of routine handling.

Or, you could always just put all of the kits in the good nest.
If they are a meat type from good lines most or all will be saved.

Sorry, I'm noticing all my spelling mistakes in this thread. I've been pretty flustered all evening.

I will check on her and the babies in the morning. They should stay pretty warm under all that fur (it's not supposed to get very cold tonight). If she still hasn't fed them by tomorrow, I will try holding her over them.

Thanks for your prompt responses!

-- Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:37 am --

*Update*

This morning Cardamom had removed the nest from the nestbox, scattering it and her kits all over the cage floor. Most of them have bite marks and blood on them from where she moved them, I guess. I brought them in to warm them up one more time, but it didn't look to hopeful. So far one appears to have life. I'll just stick any live ones in my other doe's nestbox.

I have to say, Cardamom has NOT done much to endear herself to me: bad temperament, unwilling breeder, and now a pitiful mother. I was thinking I would give her one more chance, so I stuck her in with my buck this morning, but she STILL refused to breed.

I'm thinking she's already hit her strike 3+. :evil:

Phacelia":3vqhimtt said:

Sorry, I'm noticing all my spelling mistakes in this thread. I've been pretty flustered all evening.

I will check on her and the babies in the morning. They should stay pretty warm under all that fur (it's not supposed to get very cold tonight). If she still hasn't fed them by tomorrow, I will try holding her over them.

Thanks for your prompt responses!

-- Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:37 am --

*Update*

This morning Cardamom had removed the nest from the nestbox, scattering it and her kits all over the cage floor. Most of them have bite marks and blood on them from where she moved them, I guess. I brought them in to warm them up one more time, but it didn't look to hopeful. So far one appears to have life. I'll just stick any live ones in my other doe's nestbox.

I have to say, Cardamom has NOT done much to endear herself to me: bad temperament, unwilling breeder, and now a pitiful mother. I was thinking I would give her one more chance, so I stuck her in with my buck this morning, but she STILL refused to breed.

I'm thinking she's already hit her strike 3+. :evil:

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How old are your does ?-sometimes first time does do not catch on to the mothering thing, or have no milk, [especially if they were less then 6 months old when kindling] ,- I always give them another chance, but- if they fail 2x in a row, they are not breedstock anymore.

Bummer but maybe it's for the best :shrug:

Thankfully none of my current rabbits have ever been violent to their kits but in the past I did have an occasional NDwarf that was murderous - one was an outstanding example of the breed but even as a kid I knew I didnt want to pass that temperament on so i never bred her again but did win lots of ribbons at the fairs with her it figures she is also the one who lived to 14 :mrgreen:

Not using the nest box and not having milk is one thing - maiming and killing kits is another - she'd be soup if she were in my barn

PS have you bred a second doe to foster to incase she mess up again?

You've been sent a signal..........by both does. I wouldn't hold too much
against the deserter, but I doubt she'll surpass the good Mama in the
future. It's always best to "NOT" expect much from a first litter doe.
That way, you're not too disappointed.

If the one doe has a good milk supply, she "can" raise 12 kits. Just
remember their overall growth and weight gain will be considerably
reduced. I've had several does kindle and raise all 12 of their kits.
A lot of their success is determined by their heritage. If they come from
good lines, they themselves are apt to be what you're after.

michaels4gardens":1c3vrv7l said:

Phacelia":1c3vrv7l said:

Sorry, I'm noticing all my spelling mistakes in this thread. I've been pretty flustered all evening.

I will check on her and the babies in the morning. They should stay pretty warm under all that fur (it's not supposed to get very cold tonight). If she still hasn't fed them by tomorrow, I will try holding her over them.

Thanks for your prompt responses!

-- Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:37 am --

*Update*

This morning Cardamom had removed the nest from the nestbox, scattering it and her kits all over the cage floor. Most of them have bite marks and blood on them from where she moved them, I guess. I brought them in to warm them up one more time, but it didn't look to hopeful. So far one appears to have life. I'll just stick any live ones in my other doe's nestbox.

I have to say, Cardamom has NOT done much to endear herself to me: bad temperament, unwilling breeder, and now a pitiful mother. I was thinking I would give her one more chance, so I stuck her in with my buck this morning, but she STILL refused to breed.

I'm thinking she's already hit her strike 3+. :evil:

Click to expand...

How old are your does ?-sometimes first time does do not catch on to the mothering thing, or have no milk, [especially if they were less then 6 months old when kindling] ,- I always give them another chance, but- if they fail 2x in a row, they are not breedstock anymore.

Click to expand...

They are both 7 months. I actually attempted to re-breed her this morning, since does are suppossed to be most receptive after they've just kindled. She still refused to be bred.

Dood":1c3vrv7l said:

Bummer but maybe it's for the best :shrug:

Thankfully none of my current rabbits have ever been violent to their kits but in the past I did have an occasional NDwarf that was murderous - one was an outstanding example of the breed but even as a kid I knew I didnt want to pass that temperament on so i never bred her again but did win lots of ribbons at the fairs with her it figures she is also the one who lived to 14 :mrgreen:

Not using the nest box and not having milk is one thing - maiming and killing kits is another - she'd be soup if she were in my barn

PS have you bred a second doe to foster to incase she mess up again?

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I'm thinking she is a good candidate for the crock pot, myself. I wasn't planning on re-breeding the good doe right away, but I would IF the bad doe would allow herself to be bred. I may be done wasting my time with her

Phacelia":3i4e9exi said:

I practically denuded Cardamom's underbelly, making a better nest for the kits. Hopefully her instincts will kick in.

Click to expand...

Phacelia":3i4e9exi said:

This morning Cardamom had removed the nest from the nestbox, scattering it and her kits all over the cage floor.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing that her instincts did kick in, just not in the way you were expecting. She probably went into the "it's time to dig a burrow for my nest" phase, and that is how all of the nesting material and kits were thrown from the box.

It is a very rare rabbit that will actually pick a kit up with its mouth and move it. In fact, I have never personally seen it, and if it weren't for a respected member (Mary Ann) having seen it firsthand, I wouldn't believe it is actually sometimes done.

If you are going to give the doe another chance, I would give her a fresh nestbox and some hay to gather so she can at least "practice" her nest building. If you see her digging in the box, you will know that she isn't a homicidal maniac, but rather was just following her instincts.

Sorry for the lost litter- I know how horrible it is to go check on the buns with happy expectations, only to find a tragedy instead.

Better luck next time. :clover:

MamaSheepdog":1kt6ct9j said:

Phacelia":1kt6ct9j said:

I practically denuded Cardamom's underbelly, making a better nest for the kits. Hopefully her instincts will kick in.

Click to expand...

Phacelia":1kt6ct9j said:

This morning Cardamom had removed the nest from the nestbox, scattering it and her kits all over the cage floor.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing that her instincts did kick in, just not in the way you were expecting. She probably went into the "it's time to dig a burrow for my nest" phase, and that is how all of the nesting material and kits were thrown from the box.

It is a very rare rabbit that will actually pick a kit up will-th its mouth and move it. In fact, I have never personally seen it, and if it weren't for a respected member (Mary Ann) having seen it firsthand, I wouldn't believe it is actually sometimes done.

If you are going to give the doe another chance, I would give her a fresh nestbox and some hay to gather so she can at least "practice" her nest building. If you see her digging in the box, you will know that she isn't a homicidal maniac, but rather was just following her instincts.

Sorry for the lost litter- I know how horrible it is to go check on the buns with happy expectations, only to find a tragedy instead.

Better luck next time. :clover:

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You may be right, Mama Sheepdog. When I first saw her carrying straw the night before they were born, she was trying to build a nest in the corner of the cage floor. I picked it all up and put it in the next box, placing the box in the same spot where she was trying to build. She just kept pushing the box away from that spot. That is also where she had scattered the nest, fur and kits this morning. Maybe I should have tried to attach the box to that spot using some wire?

I don't mind giving her another chance at a litter, but she is as un-receptive as ever. I may try the raspberry zinger tea and re-breed her along with the other doe in a couple of weeks.

The bad temper would have been enough for me.


I think the damage on the kits from trying to move them wasn't her fault though.
I have seen teeth marks on a kit once from a doe trying to move it. It's like trying to pick up a baby with scissors.

Maybe your little doe isn't ill tempered or a bad mother, but is simply a non-conformist :lol: She has her own ideas. I don't mind that in my own does, personally, but that doesn't work for everyone, I understand. Maybe she doesn't want to breed on command, maybe she doesn't like the buck, maybe she wants to dig a burrow and not put her kits in a box. She is clearly thinking outside the box

My bucks and does need to be girlfriend and boyfriend for a while first before they breed, and then they breed successfully every time. They spend many hours together, separated by a fence or cage wire, before I let them run together. Maybe that will work for your doe? Also, one of my first timers kindled a few days ago. She had a nice nest box, but build a nest in the hay. Not really a problem. Would that be a problem in a wire cage? You could shield that corner of the cage by attaching card board to the sides and bottom with zip ties?

I guess I got a little off topic.

I personally don't have the patience for that in my rabbits and I wouldn't want anyone buying my stock to have to follow such an exacting protocol to get rabbits they bought from me producing :shrug:

Dood":2qg5wika said:

I personally don't have the patience for that in my rabbits and I wouldn't want any one buying my stock to have to follow such an exacting protocol to get rabbits they bought from me producing :shrug:

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I agree with you. Good nesting and mothering instincts that are compatible with how people typically raise rabbits are important. I've yet to have a doe fail to get the kits in the box when a box was provided, even a first timer. My does don't bite me, so handling the kits, trimming nails and checking for milk are easier. Let me repeat: Taking good care of them and having them stressed less during this care is easier (and likely more enjoyable) with better tempered animals.

Nice does who are good mothers are not rare. I'm thinking of culling a super sweet animal right now because her milk comes in a bit late and she can lose one or two of her smallest kits during the first couple days because of it. I like having my infant mortality rate as near to zero as possible. She's only weaning 6-7 kits out of 8 or 9...and that isn't good enough for me, even with great nesting, fostering abilities, good kit growth, and being SUPER easy to handle.

Having kits on the wire already costs far too many breeders far too many kits. I feel that selling rabbits that bite or are neurotically fearful sets them up for more potential abuse and abandonment later. I don't trust people to take good care of even easy to handle animals. No reason to up the difficulty levels.

Definitely. To each their own. We all have different philosophies. I don't raise commercial rabbits. I raise a rare breed. Each of my rabbits has a personality and they are allowed to be rabbits instead of breeding machines. They are all good rabbits, but none of them are perfect - like people. Sometimes you have to look at the success of your rabbitry as a whole and not scrutinize every detail.

BC Belgians":2d0gul23 said:

Definitely. To each their own. We all have different philosophies. I don't raise commercial rabbits. I raise a rare breed. Each of my rabbits has a personality and they are allowed to be rabbits instead of breeding machines. They are all good rabbits, but none of them are perfect - like people. Sometimes you have to look at the success of your rabbitry as a whole and not scrutinize every detail.

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My rabbits are also not breeding machines. I feel that we are more like partners working together to raise litters. They receive treats, toys, physical affection, grooming, medical care and out of the cage playtime from me. Their calm natures allow them to relax and actually enjoy my attention. Almost all of them like ear scratches, and I have one doe who doesn't feel she has gotten enough attention until I rub her with both hands and then lay my face against her fur.
That doesn't include the velveteens, who are on a completely different level. Those bunnies are downright affectionate.
The meat rabbits are asked to produce a litter every 3 or 4 months, the meat they provide being a fair trade IMO for the attention and upkeep.
Unfortunately, Cocci was a problem here, so I can no longer have rabbits on the ground. (Except for the house bunnies, because it's easier to keep the area sterilized.)
The wire cages are for their own health. Rabbits in wire cages must use a nestbox. Birthing on the wire is fatal to kits if it's not quickly spotted by a breeder, and the kits placed in a box.

BCBelgians both your setup and your rabbits are absolutely beautiful.

You were aware that your chosen breed was more independent and higher maintenance to begin with, and decided to work with those traits instead of against them. I respect you greatly for that.

I wasn't implying that there was anything wrong with your rabbits.
It's just that most people will not have the time, space, patience, or possibly even the understanding to be able to replicate a setup like yours.
Most people would not be able to keep rabbits that require the extra space and supplemental heat.
You have already seen how difficult it is to find others whom you would be comfortable selling your rabbits to, and I feel you made a very responsible choice to process your extras, instead of letting them fall into less caring hands.

When I suggest to others to cull for temperament and mothering traits, it's with future generations of rabbit in mind, and future rabbitry success for inexperienced raisers as well as seasoned ones.
It amounts to a long term plan to help reduce infant mortality rates, and improve the ease of care for domestic rabbits in general.