Harli/tri questions

1) If you cross a tort with a tri/harli, what is the likelihood of getting torted tris/harlis? And are torted tri/harlis any good for breeding, or should they always be sold as pets?

2) Are magpies actually any good for breeding? I know a lot of people do use magpies for breeding and even breed them on purpose, but then I've also heard that they mess up the tricolors and are overall not good.

3) I know you can get tris if you cross a tri to a wideband color like orange or fawn, but what about self colors like black, blue, chocolate?

This would be Holland Lops.

1. Zero to 50% - if the tri/harli carries 2 agouti genes you will only get fawns and tri/harli. If they have a self and agouti there is a 50% chance of torts and torted tris/harlies. (PS - If the tri/harli is torted it will only produce torts and torted tris/Harli's)

I can think of no reason why they cannot be used for breeding except they will pass a self gene onto their offspring who could produce torts if crossed to another self carrier

2. Magpies are not good for show quality tri's because the often lack Rufus factors and will dilute the rich red to an orange or even cream - I speak from experience my Harli's out of my American Chinchilla can be so light they look like sooty magpies

3. Crossing tri's to self will produce chestnuts, broken chestnuts, harlequinized chestnuts (see pic of kit on right) broken harli chestnuts. These in turn can be crossed to a tri but you will also get chestnut, self, fawn and tort all of which may or may not be harlequinized

Dood":a1yaazfl said:

1. Zero to 50% - if the tri/harli carries 2 agouti genes you will only get fawns and tri/harli. If they have a self and agouti there is a 50% chance of torts and torted tris/harlies. (PS - If the tri/harli is torted it will only produce torts and torted tris/Harli's)

I can think of no reason why they cannot be used for breeding except they will pass a self gene onto their offspring who could produce torts if crossed to another self carrier

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That's great. I had been concerned about torts. Someone said my tri buck might be torted, but I don't think so since I'm pretty sure there's only one or two torts in his pedigree (and not recently in his pedigree). I guess I'll be able to tell for sure with a tort doe?

2. Magpies are not good for show quality tri's because the often lack Rufus factors and will dilute the rich red to an orange or even cream - I speak from experience my Harli's out of my American Chinchilla can be so light they look like sooty magpies

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Okay. Good to know. I know a lot of inexperienced tricolor breeders will use magpies, but I've tried to stay away from them.

3. Crossing tri's to self will produce chestnuts, broken chestnuts, harlequinized chestnuts (see pic of kit on right) broken harli chestnuts. These in turn can be crossed to a tri but you will also get chestnut, self, fawn and tort all of which may or may not be harlequinized

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The funny thing is, I don't mind owning agoutis, but I do NOT want to breed agoutis. I'm not a fan of them and I've found that chestnuts don't sell well as pets, which is a lot of what I sell. I was hoping that I could breed selfs to anything... but I don't want to get a litter of chestnuts.
Does the same thing happen when you breed self to wideband?

Does the same thing happen when you breed self to wideband?

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Yes, you'd get 50% to 100% agouti based

Fawns, orange, cream, red and frosty are all agouti based & non-extension so if bred to a self & full extension (self black, chocolate, blue, lilac) you will probably get chestnuts.

But if you mean to breed to a self & non-extension, AKA a tort, then you cannot get chestnut but only colours from the "wideband group" and possibly more torts

But you wouldn't get all chestnuts from a self x wideband.... I remember now breeding Mini Lops. I had an orange doe and a black buck and I all got were black, chinchilla, and chestnut kits.
Does that mean that the black buck wasn't self black, or is that normal?

I would get only chestnuts from a tricolor x self?

You are correct that crossing a "self group" with a "wideband group" will likely produce chestnuts. To get blacks, chinchillas and chestnuts they both must have carried a recessive on the C-locus, the doe must have carried self and the black buck must have not carried non-extension

Crossing a tri and black (or blue or chocolate or lilac) self will likely produce mostly chestnuts and broken chestnuts.

The confusion comes with the term "self" - torts are self, so are seals, sables, sable points and of course the "self group" colours of black, blue, chocolate and lilac.

I don't use the groups because they are incorrect and hence confusing -for example any colour of rabbit can also be wideband - tans are all wideband but are not included in the "wideband group"

Dood":2d5bwisx said:

You are correct that crossing a "self group" with a "wideband group" will likely produce chestnuts. To get blacks, chinchillas and chestnuts they both must have carried a recessive on the C-locus, the doe must have carried self and the black buck must have not carried non-extension

Crossing a tri and black (or blue or chocolate or lilac) self will likely produce mostly chestnuts and broken chestnuts.

The confusion comes with the term "self" - torts are self, so are seals, sables, sable points and of course the "self group" colours of black, blue, chocolate and lilac.

I don't use the groups because they are incorrect and hence confusing -for example any colour of rabbit can also be wideband - tans are all wideband but are not included in the "wideband group"

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Okay, thanks. I've been trying to learn about genetics but it can be so confusing.
Just wondering how torts, etc. can be self? Is self the same thing as full-extension or are not all selfs full-extension?

"Self" is just a gene and the opposite of agouti so a self black would be a chestnut, a self blue would be an opal and a self lilac would be a lynx if they weren't self.

A torts also have the self genes, but also non-extension and the two blend to create torts - they would be fawn if they weren't self.

Could you please recommend a resource for learning more about genetics? ( specifically that would include harli/tri and astrex)

Have been reading your posts-- thanks so much for the help.

The "rabbit colours and genetics" category on the forum has some good info and I like this site for the basics

http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.co ... sindex.php