Need help evaluating a Holland

I am fairly new to Holland Lops. I've never shown rabbits.
BUT I am learning. I've been looking at a LOT of photos to try to get a picture in my mind of what a Holland should look like. I've got a basic idea now, but I've still very fuzzy on the specifics.

This is my Holland buck. He's a year-old blue/fawn tri. I haven't actually weighed him yet, but I'd say he's pretty big - around 4-5 lbs.
He is at least brood quality, correct?

Please tell me about his good and bad points.
I'm especially interested in his crown. Is it badly slipped? Or okay?

I don't breed Hollands but Mini Lops who are definitely not show quality and others will have more experience but here is my opinion.

Brood quality generally means that the genetics are there but something disqualifies the rabbit from a show table. It could be that they have a white mark, lack the dwarf gene, or ar a little weak in ONE area but if crossed a the right mate you could luck out and get a show worthy kit.

It also generally applies to just the females of the dwarf breeds since true dwarf does can have difficulties giving birth and it is recommended to breed a true dwarf buck to a bigger false dwarf doe and never a large male on a dwarf female.

Your bucks crown is slipped and is too low and far back on his head, this is is difficult to fix and can cause "airplane" or forward pointing ears in his offspring.

He is weak in this hind end and the arch in his back is too steep and not rounded - again, this is very difficult to fix by breeding to a better doe.

Give that he is over sized, has a poor crown and body form I would not consider him breeding quality to create show worthy rabbits.

BUT

Any rabbit can be shown and as long as he has no disqualifying marks (i dont know if blue harlequin is an accepted colour in HLops :shrug: ) your little guy might be the best looking specimen that day so he wins it just depends on the competition.

Thanks, Dood.

Yeah, I figured that he wasn't great quality.

Just so you know, though, his head really looks nothing like the last photo. That photo was merely to show the best I can make his back look (but like I says, he does it better when he's at ease in his cage). Still, I believe you when you say his crown is slipped. I didn't know that it could make the ears stick out, though - I thought it was more that the ears were too flat...?

I believe blue/fawn tricolor is a showable color in Hollands (harlequin isn't, though).

Anyway, I like my rabbits to be friendly, and... he isn't. I can't hold him. He freaks out. And I'm honestly not sure I want to breed tricolors. So I'll be keeping a lookout for a better (and, hopefully, friendlier) buck.

Does anyone else have an opinion?

I'm not an expert but generally if a Holland is hard to get in the "show pose" it is because they are not put together correctly. I'm not a fan of his nose or crown, his head seems lowset and bone and mass is lacking. He is cute but I don't think he is going to bring a lot to the table unless you were starting a colour project and putting him with some stellar bodied does.

These pages have helped me a lot in evaluating type, Hollands are a tough breed to do well.

all about lop crowns http://www.miniaturelops.com/crowns.htm

this one has good pictures http://oakridgerabbitry.weebly.com/holl ... -type.html

great resource http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-judging/

useful pictures, many taken from the Holland Lop Type Improvement facebook group http://hollyshollands.weebly.com/holland-lop-type.html

good luck!

Thanks, DangerBunny! <br /><br /> __________ Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:33 pm __________ <br /><br /> Thank you all for your replies. Today I went out with the camera and tried wrangling him one more time. I finally got this picture. It was the best I could do under the circumstances. This picture shows him looking a lot more like he really does.

Some faults jump out at me - slipped crown, long bone, somewhat poor head mount. I do like his full ear and the width between his eyes, though.
What do you think?

bantambunnies":31kxnoh2 said:

Thanks, DangerBunny!

__________ Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:33 pm __________

Thank you all for your replies. Today I went out with the camera and tried wrangling him one more time. I finally got this picture. It was the best I could do under the circumstances. This picture shows him looking a lot more like he really does.

Some faults jump out at me - slipped crown, long bone, somewhat poor head mount. I do like his full ear and the width between his eyes, though.
What do you think?

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Nice head, head mount isn't bad, it's just he's tilted forward, nice eye, short body. I don't see anything that screams "DQ!"

Holland lops are HARD. I show in open, tri colors are an even harder show color. They just aren't up to par overall like torts even though they are entered in broken. As far as he goes, if you have really nice agouti doe he might do well for breeding. Top and front shots would help but he looks long in body, long shoulder, slipped crown, ears are okay they look long because of the slip but they do look bit folded, even slipped has nice definition could only imagine would be really good if could get a good/fair crown kid from him, bone looks good but week ankles. Front and top would help with evaluating width more, he's better than a lot of tri examples and broods I've seen. He's nicer than the harlequin doe I use for breeding. If you strictly want comments may show, but expect low placing, always do that just in case the poof fairy visits here or there's others better which with the torts usually happen. Like others said though, will depend on area. I can't tell (looks possibly torted but ears are so dark and cant get good close view of them or nose marking) but check to make sure he's not forged which is a DQ or over general requirements if do show him ARBA wise. If you do end up figuring he is torted, can clean up offspring by breeding to agouti. Try to go to a smaller show, I've found judges tend to have more time to talk with smaller ones, still friendly at bigger but its sometimes impossible to take a few in between rounds to just talk. I've not come across one yet, but like everything else there's always an exception.

People tend to like tri and harlequins for pets/small breeding more than any other color in my area. Chinchilla comes in next. I love both but have yet to place higher than mid class against small class torts (10-25).

Thank you, HalfPints and Rebel.Rose!

Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry":1nmf4nt7 said:

Holland lops are HARD. I show in open, tri colors are an even harder show color. They just aren't up to par overall like torts even though they are entered in broken. As far as he goes, if you have really nice agouti doe he might do well for breeding.

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I do have an agouti doe. I'm able to pose her a lot more easily than I can pose this buck, but she's got a lot of faults that even I can see. (I've never been to a rabbit show and I've never even seen a really good Holland in person. I've spent a lot of time looking at photos of good Hollands, though.)

Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry":1nmf4nt7 said:

Top and front shots would help but he looks long in body, long shoulder, slipped crown, ears are okay they look long because of the slip but they do look bit folded, even slipped has nice definition could only imagine would be really good if could get a good/fair crown kid from him, bone looks good but week ankles. Front and top would help with evaluating width more, he's better than a lot of tri examples and broods I've seen. He's nicer than the harlequin doe I use for breeding.

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I can try to get those shots soon (if I can get him into position again). The ears do have a slight crease in them, but overall they are very full and they're thicker than on any rabbit I've owned before. I'm glad to know that he's good for his color. Who knows, maybe he could win best of variety in a show...?

Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry":1nmf4nt7 said:

If you strictly want comments may show, but expect low placing, always do that just in case the poof fairy visits here or there's others better which with the torts usually happen. Like others said though, will depend on area.

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I definitely wouldn't go expecting high placing.
I've checked the ARBA website and it looks like there's only one or two shows in my state this year. So either it's a very small show or a very big show. (And I don't live in a small state.)

Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry":1nmf4nt7 said:

I can't tell (looks possibly torted but ears are so dark and cant get good close view of them or nose marking) but check to make sure he's not forged which is a DQ or over general requirements if do show him ARBA wise. If you do end up figuring he is torted, can clean up offspring by breeding to agouti.

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I know what you mean by torted, but what does forged mean? And how can I really tell whether he's torted or not?

Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry":1nmf4nt7 said:

Try to go to a smaller show, I've found judges tend to have more time to talk with smaller ones, still friendly at bigger but its sometimes impossible to take a few in between rounds to just talk. I've not come across one yet, but like everything else there's always an exception.

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Hopefully I can find a small show in a reasonable distance from me. I was actually looking to see if there was a rabbit show at the state fair - I'm not terribly concerned right now about ARBA sanctioning - but although they have several animal shows, there is currently no rabbit show. I was also hoping that if there was, I'd be able to enter in the Youth division, but all the other animal shows require you to be in 4-H or FFA to enter the Youth show (I'm currently unable to participate in either of these programs). Is this usual?

Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry":1nmf4nt7 said:

People tend to like tri and harlequins for pets/small breeding more than any other color in my area. Chinchilla comes in next. I love both but have yet to place higher than mid class against small class torts (10-25).

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I've been looking for good quality Hollands around me, but practically EVERYTHING good I find carries the Vienna gene. I'm not really interested in BEWs right now (if only because everyone else is doing it). And pretty much everything that doesn't carry Vienna is a tricolor or harlequin.
Or it's a VM or VC harlequin. Go figure.

__________ Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:49 pm __________

Here are some more photos of him. He wasn't exactly posing... but close enough? <br /><br /> __________ Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:20 pm __________ <br /><br /> @Rebel.Rose.Rabbitry

If he was torted he would have shaded like tort on his ears and nose areas, in these he just looks like a normal blue/fawn tri Getting them to sit takes lots of practice, and since he does have a long shoulder what you are getting may be the best he can physically do. His head isn't snipy or thin, that's good. He's got better bone than the other picture makes him look, and with him setting up he doesn't look like he is actually weak in his ankles His limbs are a bit long though, but I've found usually that goes with long shoulders/long body. Ideally you want very short very thick legs. He may be scooted just a tad out of position on the one picture, angle is a bit funny to tell for sure for me. BUT he still looks like a decent starter for tri colors if try to match him with a doe that doesn't have the exact same faults or is at least an improvement over him.

I like his chest. Shoulders and chest go together, always can be wider/fuller. He may be slightly pinched and a tad undercut in hq, looks like his back legs stick out on either side a bit and his but doesn't go all the way to floor. If you can, pick him up, flip him over and very gently if he doesn't do it on his own, tap/touch his belly so he brings his legs up. Are they straight, V'd, very close together, apart? I see this checked much more on does than bucks, but checking bucks is important too. If he lacks you want to pick a doe that has a nice full hindquarter, rear legs should be l l and as far apart as possible. The feet should also be flat and not turned side ways or lay at an odd angle, I've seen a few cow hocked Holland Lops that have been dq'ed.

Fairs and county events, at least here, are FFA and 4H only. I would guess it would/could vary depending upon area. There are a few instances where there are open classes, but this past year even those haven't been open as they didn't feel they had enough to make it show worthy. Its sad there isn't more shows locally, I'd love not to have to make a 3+ hour trip. Long distance trips usually mean by the time I get to the show the nice coated buck I have is now a naughty pee rubber or the buck above has sprayed and gotten my only nice junior...or the stress had made them all start blowing coat or my best bet turn into a carpet hugger lol.

You may want to look at other breed helpful hints with similar body type, there are several points (like the one with the feet) that come from other breed tips that can be used on Hollands. I really should've thought of a few sites earlier. The Nature Trail site has oodles of information on Holland Lops. As well as Oak Ridge on posing and marked pictures to help see faults Some things you have to feel, like to a point hq (should not feel like a bony behind or pointed or flat/box) or lacking width/pinched hq (should be able to start at the shoulders and evenly run your hand down the spine with out catching). When you look down you want a short well filled and wide. Oak Ridge will help give better idea, lots of pictures with it already marked

http://oakridgerabbitry.weebly.com/holl ... -type.html

Thanks!

I think he only has one tort on his pedigree (and not that recent) so I doubt he'd be torted. He does seem to be another color on him, but I think that's just a normal dirty blue color.

I did get some better shots of him... he's gotten a little more comfortable with sitting on a table now, so I don't have to work so hard. Now he naturally sits in a pretty good position anyway, so I haven't had to mess with him so much to get the photos I want. He's not really posed in my newer pictures either, but they're better. In the pictures I posted, he was totally doing his own thing... I was trying not to touch him because right now all he does is hunch into himself and into the table - or just pop back out of his pose - when I touch him, so that's no help.

I'm not sure I want to do tricolors. I do love getting the harlies in the litters, but there aren't a lot of nice tris around to choose from. Definitely want to do a color that's compatible with torts, and tricolors aren't always.

If there were more local shows I'd be there, but as it is the closest shows are 2 1/2 hours away. I don't even have a driver's license, so that can get a bit tricky with family members who aren't nearly as enthusiastic about rabbit showing.

Thanks! I have seen a few websites but I know it's always good to keep looking. I'm learning a lot and I'm glad... although in one way it makes me sad that every time I go to look at my bunnies, I'm seeing what's wrong with them instead of their sweet personalities...

On torted tri colors or torted harlequins, you may never see a tort on their pedigree. Pedigrees are only a small piece of the puzzle and are only as honest as the person you got them from.

To improve on color, some times you have to go outside. You can breed tri or harlequin to very nice tort and then breed back to a compatible agouti to get correct color later on. Its like with any thing else, a roll of the dice.

Working with them hands on is important, he may not like it but if you ever want to show him it is needed. I've seen a few hormonal does and tired bucks take a chunk out of the judge, then be dq'd for it. No one wants to try to pose a rabbit that has no hands on experience that I've known. There are ones that are more prone to pose naturally, genetic trait as well as correct type it seems. A poor or lacking rabbit will not pose correctly some times, they just physically can't. Take some time and think it over, nothing is set in stone and its a fun project for you, so many choices though and that can make it difficult to pick 1 or 2 colors to work with

So are torted tris are okay to use in breeding, correct?

I'm saving my money for nice rabbits. It's tough when they're so far away, but I'm always looking.

This buck isn't the friendliest. Family members have suggested I try breeding for temperament and I think that's a great idea in theory but hard to do when breeding for type. I would handle this buck more if he were more pleasant to handle. My hand was in his cage yesterday and he just charged forward and nipped me hard. I WAS intruding on his personal space and he felt nervous, but that's not the kind of rabbit I like to keep. I think when I can find a better buck, this guy will have to go.

IF type is there, and you are prepared to do some thing with a couple of generations if issues crop up, yes. Just do not sell any torts or such to those wanting to breed torts, people later on that thought they were getting a nice tort or shaded may get a horrible surprise in their new best litter by harlequinzed or tri factored kits. Same goes for agouti if you end up getting them to help with type, they can be used but don't sell an agouti from a tri/harlequin breeding to some one planning to use for a agouti program as they can end up passing that down too. BUT that's my personal and what I've seen do/complain about, IF some one understands that they can have bad coloration from breeding x to y BUT will deal with the offspring and tell when they sell I don't see a problem with it in theory (the issue is when that information gets lost down the line or some one neglects to note a pedigree that its distant relatives came from a tri/harlequin program). Some people find harlequinized/tri factored babies irresistible, pets/breeding both. But most of the time those people do not show in ARBA shows either, more 4H and FFA if its like here. As long as they like the rabbit and understand consequences....

In general, the more you handle the more they will tolerate, some may never like being held or petted though, if you do not handle they are not going to tolerate it. You have to be firm but gentle. If he does it again, pin him to the bottom of the cage. Be careful not to get bit, just catch him and hold him down, might take both hands and watch not to get kicked. Dominance is what you're showing with this, do not let him go until he stops and stays still plus relaxes a bit. It may take 2 minutes or 20. If you use the search feature on the forum you can find other experiences with territorial behavior and how to handle as well. You definitely don't want him deciding you are the "lowest" on the totem pole. How did you have your hand in his cage? Did you sweep down from above, move rapidly and he dart around the cage? Those are predatory movements (grabbing from above quickly, running around the cage with a hand, etc) and they will try to escape or do like he did if not worse. I've had a few scared escapees bite me, they were outside and there are quite a few things here that will eat them if left loose for long, so they had to be caught one way or another. That is fear though, not true aggression. If they exhibit TRUE aggression, they are terminally culled here. Continuous charging even after establishing rank, biting, drawing blood, kicking, growling, latching on to, charging, jumping on and digging, going after through cage bars, and even spraying/peeing on could be aggression but some of those depends on the situation. I like to keep and breed ones that are more tolerant of strange movements, loud noises, easy to catch, natural posers, have a natural curiosity when I'm around to come to me, no/little flight response when some thing does scare them. I've had rabbits hurt themselves because the neighbor decided to target practice and the shots scared them into running into their cage wall or bouncing literally around in them and just jump/hop the wrong way and end up with broken toes to broken back. I have a ZERO tolerance for true aggression, when I didn't know any better about it having a genetic component (bad breeds bad temper most of the time even though there are some cases where they've just not been handled and not used to humans but even then they do not show TRUE aggressive behaviors most of the time) I had some rabbits that would go after you through their cage wire and were worse when they knew they could have a chance at you.

If you were prepared to breed, sort the kids, watch temperament, any that didn't do well by the time you were ready to sell, decide to term cull or let some one else have for feeder or whatever you decide to do with rabbits that don't make the cut, and then use that money to help invest and learn from that experience it would be good. There are so many problems that GOOD show Holland lops can/will have when breeding, IMO a fair/good quality brood breeding start is better than sinking 300 in one buck and another 300 in a doe only to have the doe die, the litters never make it, the buck never drop if a junior, the doe not produce or the buck, or the many other possibilities with out having some sort of basic hands on with ones you aren't as afraid of having issues with as much so the issues you do have aren't so over whelming (hopefully), not saying that its good for issues either way IF any do (which issues may never happen, but its a luck game), but there can be a steep learning curve. I hope that makes sense. Every rabbit is just as valuable in terms of life/attachment we have to them in some way, its just not as hard per say to have problems and learn on that $50.00 pair than a $600.00 pair when it comes to the show/breeding side.