No More Charlies

OneAcreFarm":3achjn5d said:

I walked past the cage and heard rattling lung noises, so I pinpointed the source, removed it, and listen to it's lungs.

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I now have an image of you in my head wearing a white lab coat, stethoscope swinging as you walk briskly through your barn! Makes me want to get my stethoscope out and go listen to some bunny lungs...

ladysown":179to58i said:

vienna marked buns will have a white mark on them somewhere

this black kit has a white snip on his nose

the most likely thing is getting a solid coloured bunny that has a snip on the nose, a star on the head.. those buns are vienna marked. Spots on the toes, white toenails, etc. Basically white colour when it doesn't belong. Or a solid black bunny with blue eyes. now that's a STRIKING animal.

A vienna carrier is harder to tell. I had a sable point buck that way back in it's ped had blue eyes. He occasionally would throw these lovely kits and out of a litter of say ten torts..would give me one or two with a nose snip or blue eyes. Irritating as nine times out of ten it would the sharpest kit in the litter.

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my doe has white toenails

and blue eyes

MamaSheepdog":ir2ci8i0 said:

OneAcreFarm":ir2ci8i0 said:

I walked past the cage and heard rattling lung noises, so I pinpointed the source, removed it, and listen to it's lungs.

Click to expand...

I now have an image of you in my head wearing a white lab coat, stethoscope swinging as you walk briskly through your barn! Makes me want to get my stethoscope out and go listen to some bunny lungs...

Click to expand...

I do INDEED have a stethoscope or two...but this was so loud, I could hear it just walking by and required only an ear to the rabbits chest to hear VERY clearly!

Frosted Rabbits":3iy707w3 said:

TheLittleBunny10":3iy707w3 said:

whats a charlie?

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A "charlie' is a rabbit that normally has color-- but when a 'broken' pattern exists, the color is less than 10% of the coat.

White foals have issues with colons not being complete-- In white dogs and cats, the hairs that are 'brittle' are usually absent-- within the cochlea-- the organ that transfers vibrations into the nervous system of the brain. In France, some dog breeds, known for 'lethal white' actually have breed standards that require coloring on the ears and certain parts of the head-- supposedly, this reduces the incidence of deafness..

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In foals it's only the OLWS or overo lethal white syndrome that kills them within days if not put down. However this is only common when you have two overo parents who carry that gene to pass it on. And it's must me passed down by both parents. Most 'white' foals are fine as they do not have that specific olwls gene from both parents. However they could carry said gene as long as they only have the one no effect. Just carrier.

paintrider89":1tywbs2f said:

Frosted Rabbits":1tywbs2f said:

TheLittleBunny10":1tywbs2f said:

whats a charlie?

Click to expand...

A "charlie' is a rabbit that normally has color-- but when a 'broken' pattern exists, the color is less than 10% of the coat.

White foals have issues with colons not being complete-- In white dogs and cats, the hairs that are 'brittle' are usually absent-- within the cochlea-- the organ that transfers vibrations into the nervous system of the brain. In France, some dog breeds, known for 'lethal white' actually have breed standards that require coloring on the ears and certain parts of the head-- supposedly, this reduces the incidence of deafness..

Click to expand...

In foals it's only the OLWS or overo lethal white syndrome that kills them within days if not put down. However this is only common when you have two overo parents who carry that gene to pass it on. And it's must me passed down by both parents. Most 'white' foals are fine as they do not have that specific olwls gene from both parents. However they could carry said gene as long as they only have the one no effect. Just carrier.

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Yeah, the gene in horses is the frame overo gene. Get 2 copies of that, and the foal is fatal. Charlie works quite the same way, it needs 2 copies of the broken gene.

I'd like to point out that last I checked, there's a genetic test available for Lethal White Overo in horses, so the fact that they continue to exist and die angers me. IMO, if you have a Paint horse, test 'em before breeding. Makes me crazy.

As to merle dogs...I cannot ever condone double-merles. I don't care if the number one sheltie had a DM dam. It shouldn't happen. The fact that any breeder would risk a dog being born deaf and without eyes just to get a pretty pretty color makes me unhappy. I knew an Aussie DM, she had no eyes and was totally deaf. Nice dog, but...she was limited in what she could do. IMO, no color is worth condemning a dog to that. Especially since it's a dominant trait!!! Merle plus, say...bi-color or tri-color, 50% merle puppies. Frankly, I wonder sometimes if breeding DMs isn't driven by greed...I see a lot of breeders in my area who charge a lot more money for merle puppies than other colors. And a DM would produce ONLY merles. Might be born with gross deformities, but I guess to some people money is more important than a functional dog.

I bought a Charlie doe for my eventual broken silver project (which is currently on hold until I have property of my own) and she randomly died shortly after I bought her. When I looked into it, I found out how common it is for them to just NOT THRIVE. Sad!

I know what a charlie is, but what's a false charlie?

A merle to merle breeding is fine to do as long as the breeder is following the code of ethics for their breed and culling those double merles at birth. The issue is always new breeders who think they can get around genetics.

Now the double merles I have known that were allowed to grow up were hardy, healthy dogs but were blind and deaf. THey are not usually blind/deaf at birth (not in Aussies anyway), it takes a couple years so some new breeder lets them live, keeps them, they seem normal and then around 2 yrs old they go blind. It can be sooner but not usually. I never met one without eyes or blind from birth.

The sheltie breeder is ridiculous who kept and bred her double merle. Personally, I think they should have pulled his registration because a white sheltie isn't registerable- it isn't an accepted color so she lied on his AKC papers as to color.

New breeders are usually mentored to do tri to merle as besides the double merles you can sometimes get excessive white or merles that are colored correctly except one area. Experienced breeders know what to pts just by looking. It isn't easy but is the right thing to do if that was the breeding you chose.

Ivory":2ceyudzx said:

I know what a charlie is, but what's a false charlie?

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If you breed a Charlie to a Solid, you will get all broken, but you need a true Charlie for that to happen. There are times the rabbits are heavily marked, and i.e. just missing the butterfly completely<br /><br />__________ Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:41 am __________<br /><br />When breeding dwarfs,there are also true dwarfs and false dwarfs (BUDS, BUBS).

Peach":2b2gwe2h said:

Ivory":2b2gwe2h said:

I know what a charlie is, but what's a false charlie?

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If you breed a Charlie to a Solid, you will get all broken, but you need a true Charlie for that to happen. There are times the rabbits are heavily marked, and i.e. just missing the butterfly completely

__________ Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:41 am __________

When breeding dwarfs,there are also true dwarfs and false dwarfs (BUDS, BUBS).

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The butterfly?

This is GP's Muse. The marking on her nose is what you call a "butterfly"

Sometimes you can have nice complete ones like hers, halfs, or none

my friend is breeding a bunny a sold to her that is a tri, he is pretty heavily marked, but if she breeds him to a broken, will they have charlies?<br /><br />__________ Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:31 pm __________<br /><br />oh, this nose marking is a half butterfly

It's possible, you will have 25% Charlie,50%broken, and 25% Solid. I did a broken x broken breeding and got 1 solid, 2 heavily broken, and 1 half butterfly, but no charlies.

okay
thanks, I will tell her

You have a modifier to the broken pattern, if you start getting 'light'
as in -, consider a maxed out negative pattern (-) broken could (theoretically) appear as a white rabbit, and the inverse (++++) could appear as a solid or close to, as the pattern density is maxed out.

there are actually a few different color/patterns that can be arrived at by different genetic means, but appear, visually the same, and this is where knowing the parents and line comes in.

Sorry for bringing an old thread back to life, but I've had some healthy reading here.

If the gut issues in charlies are only related to the amount of white and not the double gene itself... would a double broken-gened rabbit with more black (or other colour) markings still be fine, despite being a genetic ''charlie''?

If so.. is that why checkered ''charlies'' are said to escape the internal issues better than other charlies? (since whatever causes their pattern to end up like it does seem to make sure they have that coloured wig and other spots, eel etc, leaving less white?) I'm just guessing and pondering here.

And if so - it would mean you are able to tell which kits are at a risk and cull them? I've heard the lovely answer "you can never know, they can even be almost solid and still double!" .. so I suppose that's not relevant to the gut issues if the gut issues are linked to the lack of pigment and not the colour gene itself?

How much is ''10%'' of colour on a rabbit?
Is my new doe at risk?
The eel/dorsal stripe runs unbroken across her back and continues as a thinner line with tiny spots on her belly. Top of tail is black, black spots on the outside of the hindlegs (you see it) but her butterfly is broken and she lacks spots on her side. According to google that indicates a double checkered gene...?



Unless she suddenly dies I plan to breed her to my solid buck and see if she gets solid kits. And maybe to the unrelated buck behind her in the pictures.. but that depends on what I can find out about charlies and gut issues. If it's possible to see which kits are at the risk (from having too much white) then I could breed them and simply refuse to sell any too-white kits. They could be the first to go to winter vacation in the freezer. But if it's the double genes that's related to the gut issues and not the lack of pigment,.. I'd probably only sell kits between the CH and the solid swedish pelt rabbits...

Am I way off? I've never been good with colours or genetics..

You know, I'm not as familiar with that. I personally have happy, thriving babies from brokenxbroken breedings....BUT I cull the weak from the get go. So if I see a broken or solid that's just tiny, maybe getting a sip or two of milk....they are culled cause they have never amounted to much health and genetic wise when grown out. I'm not sure how things goes with checkereds and english spots. I think she would be fine to breed. If you breed her to your solid/sport buck, I think you'll get some nice kits.

Many people keep sports for their programs because they can be very beneficial for type and health.

When the SOP says 10% color, it's is up to the discretion of the judge as far as DQing them goes, but to be showable they must have some color in the whisker bred and then color on the body....Some people cull anything lightly marked and some don't and use them when they have stellar type as brood stock

Thanks. I can't show these, never will, swedish rules makes it impossibe to ever get a pedigreed, showable kit from paper-less parens So I don't care much of disqualifications on the show table, only the health of things. In the thread it was suggested that rabbits with 10% or less colour had too little pigment healthwise.-

I'd like to know the answer to zab's question too... I have 0 experience with this.