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 Post subject: Litter and liver failure
New postPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:28 am 

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http://www.rabbit.org/journal/1/liver-disease.html

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 Post subject: Re: Litter and liver failure
New postPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:52 am 
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I belive the problem will be more likely caused by
using the Ceder bedding. I have been using
Pine shavings in my nestboxes since 1989
and have NEVER had a problem with Liver Disease
appear in any of the members of my Herd.
Sorry but I just cannot agree with the HRS findings.
They are so one sided anyway.
Hey, whatever you feel is best for your Rabbit[s]
is what you should do! I just see3 no reason to change
what I have been doing for all these years.
I believe there needs to be more intensive research done
by others not affiliated with the House Rabbit Society.
Ottersatin. :oldtimer:

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 Post subject: Re: Litter and liver failure
New postPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:48 pm 

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I'm on the fence about pine usage. If I could use something else for the same cost and effectiveness I would. It's entirely possible it is having some health impact but it just isn't enough to really see it until the animals get older. Then we tend to attribute health problems to age rather than environmental causes over time. There is nothing that equals pine shavings though and there aren't signs of health problems popping up all over like with cedar so I stick with kiln dried or well aired shavings, or spruce if I can get it, and pine pellets. The pellets are so heat treated and compressed they have minimal oils left in them.

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 Post subject: Re: Litter and liver failure
New postPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:27 pm 
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HRS have no scientific studies to back their reasoning, their rabbits probably have cocci and they're blaming the pine it's like saying I clapped my hands and there was thunder, that means when I clap my hands I make thunder, not very logical eh?

When you look at it hundreds and thousands of people use pine with their rabbits without issue, so a single rescue starts having liver problems they're automatically going to blame something without proof that what they're blaming may not be the actual cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Litter and liver failure
New postPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:17 am 

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UM, so in statistics, which I failed twice (but it was the applied stats for math majors, still flunked it...)
before you say A causes B, you have to look at the data and decide what you are analyzing and how you are doing it, THEN you do the math, and get an answer, and then you can check the answer. So there are chemical that *can* be dangerous, well people, do you know that artificial sweetener is a VERY toxic poison??
Or that TABLE SALT (NaCl) is MORE poisonous than MALATHION? (BTW I did ace Chemistry (and yes for the sciences)

So, doing the short of this
Pine (and they failed to test for the level of VOC (I see this as HUGE red flag...) Nor do the specify the TYPE of pine...
has a chemical that is known to damage livers.
Failing to exclude the common causes of Liver damage, or to establish the baseline liver function of the rabbit.
The draw that PINE SHAVINGS used in nesting boxes (and not the immune insult of pregnancy and nursing is the cause of??????


Sorry frosted, it sounds nice, but its by no means exhaustive nor exclusive, and they failed to connect random events or prove that A-B connection
It may be a basis of further study, but it's not a study, rather an author noting an occurrence, and offering a OPINION of what is happening.
that said, I used hay in the boxes as it's the habit I was in as shaving were/are messy in the house.

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