Let's talk Harlies...

It's probably obvious by now I am fascinated by them and keep coming back to that as a rabbitry goal. Rather than continually hijacking threads with my questions I figured I would start my own thread...

For those that have them, how did you get started? Breeding your own? Purchased them?

I don't intend to show, so it's more for the challenge of getting the patterns and colors using what I have (and I think I can get there... I think) vs. working toward the SOP with pedigreed animals. Also, I want to work toward more forage overall - not prepared to do so this winter, but come spring it's a goal... hoping I can do both at the same time.

Are most Harlie colored rabbits on the smaller side? Does that come with the genes? I know the harlie chestnut buck I have is definitely on the smaller side... and so were his litter mates. They were hovering around 4 lbs at butcher time (13 weeks if i remember correctly) and with no organs had percentages between 50% and 53%. Another thing to work towards.

So many ideas! Even the short wait between generations seems so long - and you even get multiple offspring to work with... I can't imagine working on larger breed animals!

Oh, my current rabbits are:

multiple "NZWs"
a harlie chestnut buck
Creme d' Argent doe
3 adult Chins (2 does, 1 buck) - 5 kits, 1 of which is a steel
I also have access to a broken tri buck that used to be mine and can get whenever I need him...

Any thoughts on where to start?

Heritage,
to get the magpie color in mutts or other breeds, you need agouti, chinchilla, and harlequin genes.
A_ __ cchd_ __ ej_


Working with what you have, I would breed the harlequinized chestnut (to keep broken pattern away)
to your chinchilla doe. If you get a harlequinized chinchilla doeling, breed it back to the father. If you get only harlequinized chestnuts, breed siblings together for a chance at magpie colored kits.

Some would frown on the inbreeding, but I think it's a great way to know if they are carrying recessive genetic problems.

Please don't sell them as harlequins or magpie harlequins though.
They are bound to be to be carrying a lot of modifiers that would harm the color and marks if bred into purebred lines.

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I posted this on the other thread

I do not believe the color and size have anything to do with the genes, neither does the forage ability.

The size has more to do with following breed sop, with some show breeders preferring them a bit on the small side, and some preferring them a little on the larger side.

RT has a great discussion on breed sop
harlequin-standards-t9495.html

The forage ability was a hunch on my part. I was looking for an older sort of body type that may not have been has heavily selected to thrive on pellets like our commercial meat breeds.

Harlequins were never commercialized. They actually lack what one would consider a good meat rabbit body type because they are judged almost entirely on markings. Mine certainly grow more slowly than commercial type meat buns. But, the growth rate for me has been closer to the same on pellets as it is one forage, so that works out.

I don't know if other lines a have the same trait, or if I just lucked out.

The other traits I love so much were just a matter of getting them from a truly good breeder.

Mine were purchased from Sarah Freund. She's a show breeder ( and a founding member or else the head of the Eastern harlequin Rabbit Club, I think.)
I told her I wanted some for a meat herd with improvement towards SOP in mind. They were the least expensive purebreds I've ever bought.
You can create the color with mutts, but I think getting the markings right for the actual breed involves a lot of hidden genetic modifiers you are simply not going to find in mutts. Especially the white marking and suppression modifiers that I think are responsible for keeping them from looking brindled.

Sort of the same way broken pattern makes tris look spotty instead of banded.

Are you talking Harlequin colored rabbits of Harlequin breed?
Coloring shouldn't affect size at all in other breeds, but the breed itself is on the smaller side (5-7 lbs i think?)

From what I have learned, getting proper patterning on a mutt would be very challenging because so many other variables.
It would be a project, for sure, but might ultimately be better helped by the addition of stock with the right coloring to start (Harle breed).

We have lots of harle mutts here, and they have thrown harlequinized chestnuts and harles, along with agoutis and selfs.
Right now I am hoping that one of my harle colored does will make some tri-colours with our broken NZR buck.

My daughter also has a purebred (non-pedigreed) magpie doe with much better markings, but no where near SOP.
She is toying with getting more come spring, which I am ok with as she is willing to contribute to the meat program with the offspring

the breed itself is on the smaller side (5-7 lbs i think?)

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6 1/2 to 9 1/2 lbs, depending on gender, unless things have changed.
With the ideal weights being 7 1/2 lbs for males and 8 for females.

From what I have learned, getting proper patterning on a mutt would be very challenging because so many other variables.
It would be a project, for sure

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Getting proper patterning on purebreds is quite challenging.
It's a project, for sure.

The reason I keep recommending against trying to re-create the breed from mutts is because it is SO hard to get it right even with great stock.

I'm not a breed purist by any means, but I'd run far and fast from any breeder sneaking mixed blood into harli lines.

The genotype is easy enough to create for fun colored mutts with pretty pelts, getting rid of unwanted genes to make them breed true would be trickier. (no one wants rew or fawn kits popping up in harlequin litters)

But the real trick would be getting them not to DQ at show.

A rabbit cannot be registered through ARBA as a purebred if it doesn't conform to SOP. That kind of explains why there are so many registered rabbits on my pedigrees.

Unlike with most breeds, I think it would be incredibly difficult to get mutts that can be registered as harlequins.

I have no idea where to even begin looking for purebred Harlies in our area (except for one "breeder," but I refuse to go back to him)... or anywhere remotely close. Darn. I don't have hugely high expectations for ones I do on my own, but is it worth it? :hmm: Or would I get a heaping dose of discouragement and frustration?

Here's the one the broken tri produced with my NZW/REW doe... is that what you mean by brindled?

I agree with Zass

I've been breeding with the harlequin gene for 5 years - first in tri colour Mini Lops and now in my meat mutts and out of 100's of tri, harlequin and magpie kits I've only gotten 3 or 4 with somewhat descent markings that would be suitable for showing the Harlequin breed

Getting the right modifiers to get the perfect patch work pattern is VERY tricky and hard to find in other breeds

If I am mainly just looking for some fun color... could I have some success?

absolutely !

I have Harlequin Lops...I also have Harlequin Dutch, and a Harlie Lionhead mix as a pet... Not sure if this is what you mean, but I like them myself.

My Harlequins are purebred and raised with the Standard in mind. My foundation stock is from Sarah Fruend/Harlequin Hatchery in Maryland, ANH Rabbitry in Louisiana, Bronwyn's Bunnies in Alabama, and Amathamdir Rabbitry in South Carolina. If you want to work toward the breed standard, definitely get purebreds from a good breeder. If you only want the color, you have more leeway. You may find it easier to seek out tricolor or harlequin colored animals versus creating them yourself.

In the Harlequin breed, size (and type) can fall by the wayside because some breeders focus almost exclusively on markings. 60% of the possible points a show Harlequin can earn are based upon markings. Little emphasis is placed on structure and in some cases, health. My very first Harlequins were purchased in 2010 from local breeders but they were snotty and had to be culled. The breeder those first Harlies came from had some decently marked animals but they had poor immunity which she covered up with antibiotics.

Dood":1j06wsgb said:

absolutely !

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Love the pics Dood! And thanks for the encouragement . I just love the coloring... "always" have! (Always = the short amount of time I have been raising rabbits )

AprilW":3u60m0ci said:

My Harlequins are purebred and raised with the Standard in mind. My foundation stock is from Sarah Fruend/Harlequin Hatchery in Maryland, ANH Rabbitry in Louisiana, Bronwyn's Bunnies in Alabama, and Amathamdir Rabbitry in South Carolina. If you want to work toward the breed standard, definitely get purebreds from a good breeder. If you only want the color, you have more leeway. You may find it easier to seek out tricolor or harlequin colored animals versus creating them yourself.

In the Harlequin breed, size (and type) can fall by the wayside because some breeders focus almost exclusively on markings. 60% of the possible points a show Harlequin can earn are based upon markings. Little emphasis is placed on structure and in some cases, health. My very first Harlequins were purchased in 2010 from local breeders but they were snotty and had to be culled. The breeder those first Harlies came from had some decently marked animals but they had poor immunity which she covered up with antibiotics.

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I recognize those names! Seems like we have some similar bloodlines.
Actually, I've noticed with the harlequin breed, the purebreds often look remarkably similar, even lines from states away. I'd guess the whole group is genetically very close.

Heritage, for magpie colored mutts, the advice I gave you in the first post should do the trick.

When making meat(or pet) mutts, you can cross anything to anything.
I know I do. I cross purebreds to mutts all the time to see what's genetically behind them.
There is a lot of freedom when breeding outside of SOP guidelines.

This little blue tri colored mutt was the first to appear in my litters. A complete surprise., and I guess I became fascinated with the genes at that point.


I guess it's a matter of semantics, but with mutts one would say,
"Look at my harlequin(or magpie) colored rabbits!"
and with purebreds one would say, "Look at my (Japanese or Magpie) Harlequins!"

Breed names are confusing, and maybe I am being touchy. Haha. I have had a lot of people try to trade me harli patterned mutts recently. Many people do not seem to understand that the ARBA recognized breed and the color are not the same thing.

Zass":23sa57r2 said:

Breed names are confusing, and maybe I am being touchy. Haha. I have had a lot of people try to trade me harli patterned mutts for recently. Many people do not seem to understand that the ARBA recognized breed and the color are not the same thing.

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YES! I've seen arguments ensue about color vs. breed and which terminology should be used. If they aren't the Harlequin breed, I think it's best to say "harlequin-colored whatever".

AprilW":1vb8jetr said:

Zass":1vb8jetr said:

Breed names are confusing, and maybe I am being touchy. Haha. I have had a lot of people try to trade me harli patterned mutts for recently. Many people do not seem to understand that the ARBA recognized breed and the color are not the same thing.

Click to expand...

YES! I've seen arguments ensue about color vs. breed and which terminology should be used. If they aren't the Harlequin breed, I think it's best to say "harlequin-colored whatever".

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OK, see, that's what I have been trying to figure out. I knew there was a difference, but wasn't sure how to phrase it. That makes total sense...

I'm so glad I have all the genetics for tri in my herd. Just have to work a bit too get it all together. That blue tri is gorgeous even if it is lightly marked.

Here's the chestnut... the two sides of his mouth are split color wise, and his front feet are different as well.



Would it be worth getting the tri-colored buck back? Although, looking at this pic, I wonder if he has pinched hips? Or maybe it's just how he's sitting. I knew nothing about that when I had him so I would have never noticed...



These were some of his offspring... loved the face on the one on the right: