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Irresponsible Breeders

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Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#1  Unread postby WWRabbitry » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:50 pm


Who else hates them? Ugh, they drive me NUTS. What makes an irresponsible breeder?

Ok ok what I meant by the heat thing was when people left rabbits with low heat tolerance in extreme heat. I have seen many rabbits die like that. Let's all just calm down, shall we? I know different rabbits are different.
Last edited by WWRabbitry on Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#2  Unread postby SixGun » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:38 pm


I live along the Mexican border in the desert of southern Arizona. Its pretty much never under 78F during the day. Its been in the 100s daily for almost a month. My rabbits all live outside.
I did lose a young growout to heatstroke recently, for the first time. Ive raised close to 200 rabbits in the last 18 months in those conditions. I dont think that makes me an irresponsible breeder. But I appreciate your opinion and energy. :)

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#3  Unread postby MeadowView » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 am


SixGun wrote:I live along the Mexican border in the desert of southern Arizona. Its pretty much never under 78F during the day. Its been in the 100s daily for almost a month. My rabbits all live outside.
I did lose a young growout to heatstroke recently, for the first time. Ive raised close to 200 rabbits in the last 18 months in those conditions. I dont think that makes me an irresponsible breeder. But I appreciate your opinion and energy. :)


Not to derail, but how do you keep condition on? My rabbits are indoors (in a garage, but indoors nonetheless) AND I have an ac unit hooked up in there, but my himmies boots/stockings look awful and heat faded. The checkered giants aren't handling it very well either, whenever it pushes past eighty in there they really worry me with how they act. Plus, blown coats, but it's summer, what can you do?

I do have a problem with irresponsible breeders, but I don't think our criteria is the same. ;)

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#4  Unread postby michaels4gardens » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:55 am


I think... rabbits are not all the same--and... rabbits raised for many generations in the hot climates have much more heat tolerance then rabbits raised indoors, or in cold climates- that is a very important consideration when housing rabbits. New breeders need to educate themselves, and then carefully watch their rabbits. It is important to know the background information of their particular genetics before designing rabbit housing.
The original post looks a lot like an AR rant-- but,- just in case it is not-- I would say-- Yes, responsibility is important for all aspects of life, including animal husbandry ....
meat-mutt rabbits, a few laying hens.

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#5  Unread postby SixGun » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:58 am


MeadowView wrote:Not to derail, but how do you keep condition on? My rabbits are indoors (in a garage, but indoors nonetheless) AND I have an ac unit hooked up in there, but my himmies boots/stockings look awful and heat faded. The checkered giants aren't handling it very well either, whenever it pushes past eighty in there they really worry me with how they act. Plus, blown coats, but it's summer, what can you do?

I do have a problem with irresponsible breeders, but I don't think our criteria is the same. ;)


The majority of my outdoor rabbits are Angora, which I think tolerate the heat a bit better than my Californians, Americans and Rex mix.

The Angoras are free fed, but when it gets super warm I do keep a better eye on condition. I found a good worming weeks before a rise in temperatures does wonders. I think those internal parasites do much more damage on condition than the heat does.

Good boots and markings on my Cals dont happen until they're almost seniors, but my seniors look great. But again, its always hot. Or rather its always hot during the day, and always 20 -30 degrees cooler overnight. Its a very consistent pattern. And right now our humidity is 30%, when it is usually between 9 - 15%. (Its a Dry HEAT. LOL!) If it bounced around in temp as much as it does in parts of the Midwest, or was as humid as the southern coast states, I think I'd have more problems.

AZ is a big state. You have some of the cooler overall temps, but I think it bounces around a bit more. We are in some elevation here, so that's probably similar.

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#6  Unread postby WWRabbitry » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:00 am


Ok everyone, hold your horses. I was just saying that some rabbits with low heat tolerance can very easily die and that it irks me when people don't keep the rabbits cool. And Sixgun, you didn't know, and you seem to care about your rabbits. I mean breeders in places like smack middle of Arizona and its 100+ degrees every summer and the rabbits have nothing to cool them off. Just about any rabbit would die in 5+ hours in 100+ degree heat.

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#7  Unread postby SixGun » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:38 pm


WWRabbitry wrote: And Sixgun, you didn't know, and you seem to care about your rabbits. I mean breeders in places like smack middle of Arizona and its 100+ degrees every summer and the rabbits have nothing to cool them off. Just about any rabbit would die in 5+ hours in 100+ degree heat.


I'm not sure what I didn't know. I'm well aware of the dangers of heat and rabbits. I have chosen those for my next generations with heat tolerance in mind. And yes, I care very much. Yes, Phoenix is on average 10 or so degrees warmer than I am, and my intervention is minimal if the high temp is under 100. I wanted you to learn that rabbits are not being mistreated if they are not in a comfortable for humans temperature of 78.
The parameters you set in your original post so much more like a house rabbit mandate, which tends to be more of an animal rights activist group. Many of the members here have decades of real experience with rabbits. I tend to take their information much more seriously than a group that does very little to actually help rabbits and their owners in the real world.
And, when a rabbit goes from warm to heat stroke to death, it happens in a lot less than 5 hours. My estimate would be a rabbit suffering from actual heat stroke, and not just being warm, can go from symptoms to death in less than an hour.

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#8  Unread postby Deer Heart » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:54 pm


93F outside here currently, 52% humidity. "Feels like" is 102. I keep english angoras and standard rex. All kept under an open shelter. Outside. No fans. No ice bottles. But most importantly, no heat issues either. My animals come from stock born and raised in this climate for generations, kept outdoors in the exact manner I'm keeping mine. I hope you can understand based on that knowledge why some might take serious offence to your criteria. As an aside, lots of things suggest this heat would make all my bucks infertile... Someone needs to inform my boys of this. Lol. Just goes to show how much incorrect info there is out there on this subject.
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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#9  Unread postby Ghost » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:34 pm


I think one of the difference between a responsible and irresponsible breeders has to do with honesty. To be a responsible breeder you must be honest on what you are breading and only breed the number that can be sold or humanly turned into food.

If a person raises indoor rabbits and is honesty in the fact that the rabbits are indoor rabbits that can not tolerate the high heat of local climates that is ok. AS long as they also realize that there is a smaller market for these indoor rabbits, and breads to numbers accordingly.

I find it unacceptable when rabbits are raised on one type of facility that and then sold under the pretense that they are hearty to the local climate when they are not. It can get dicey when those rabbits are sold through a third party that usually usually sells regionally climatized lines of the breed.

There are also times when the buyer is not particularly knowledgeable in what he or she is buying and refuses to learn neaded background information.

:offtopic: I know I'm going a bit off-topic, but what infuriated me when doing on-line research for large guinea pigs, was when a national pet store chain made a large purchase of agriculture grade guinea pigs in South America. They turned around and sold them in the U.S. to be pets to the general public. The public was not told that they would be much larger than normal size (for the U.S) and that these GPs would be more resistant to handle than standard GPs. Definitely unethical behavior when dealing with animals. If they would have been sold then to people interested in hobby farms and interested rodent breeders who where adequately informed on what they were getting, I would have had no problem with it. This is a define example when honesty in what you are selling makes all the difference in the world.
You have to do the most good for the most. You most remember that a few will won't make it. Don't be ashamed to shed a tear for the ones lost along the way, we will not hold it against you. Just remember "the herd goes on".

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#10  Unread postby SixGun » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:41 pm


WWRabbitry
I noticed you had edited your original post.
Theres no need for that, and it makes it a bit confusing. We're all here to help, but we dont all have to agree. It is ok to have your own opinion, we all have our own opinion. Whats great about this particular site is that we are also encouraged to share and learn from each others opinions and experience. Without knowledge and the willingness to learn, our rabbits would not thrive and improve.

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Re: Irresponsible Breeders

Post Number:#11  Unread postby imajpm » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:54 pm


SixGun wrote:
The majority of my outdoor rabbits are Angora, which I think tolerate the heat a bit better than my Californians, Americans and Rex mix.



Oh yes. I have German Angoras and a small number of Standard short haired Satins. This summer we endured again, as we have for the past 5 years, heat that was 90 to 105 degrees for about two and a half months. The first year I followed the annual "Angora Summer Panic Shear Everything That Moves" internet advice that declares ALL angora must be shorn as soon as it becomes 85 degrees out and nearly killed several by doing that. We have dry heat also. I intervene as needed also but for me that is around 93 degrees for a few of them, and I intervene at 95 degrees for all since that seems to be the point where they need it and to reduce stress due to issues below that are slowly resolving with selective breeding.

Example of what I consider a very irresponsible rabbit breeder would be the breeder that I got my original angoras from. I have since learned many disturbing things about this breeder and what was going on in that herd. EC, genetic urine sludge, early deaths, breaking teeth (related to sludge) and other things. This breeder was a Phd Biologist believe it or not but was very prolific. Instead of shutting down sales and figuring out the problems and fixing them, which is what I had to do and it took me 3 years to resolve all of this, she just sold them all. I believe she told me she had sold 50 kits the year I got mine. She sold them all over the west coast, including the parents and grandparents of mine. This was AFTER I had informed her of the urine sludge and the split penis on the buck too. So I was unwilling to try to replace them with anything from this side of the country and ended up flying a buck across the country to fix things.

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