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Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#31  Unread postby Frecs » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:45 pm


I suppose. But he didn't answer any questions on the forum...he certainly didn't answer mine....all he appears to be doing is giving his sells pitch.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#32  Unread postby Miss M » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:04 pm


Well... until he returns, perhaps this could serve as a place to discuss his documentation. :)
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#33  Unread postby TMTex » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:06 pm


A little update. The knot at the injection site is no longer there on the doe who had it. So that looks like week 3 after the injection and it has resolved itself. I bred her this evening.

The others haven't developed any knots.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#34  Unread postby Justintime » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:28 pm


I am still skeptical of this vaccine.

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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#35  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:28 am


Justintime wrote:I am still skeptical of this vaccine.


I guess time will tell, but I would rather wait and hear what it has to say.... ;)
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#36  Unread postby Frecs » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:22 am


I'm very skeptical and very concerned that it is being used as a "cure" rather than a preventative.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#37  Unread postby LauraNJ » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:46 am


Frecs wrote:I'm very skeptical and very concerned that it is being used as a "cure" rather than a preventative.


From what I have seen and read, everyone is using it as a preventative at this point. A few breeders tried it out on ones who had white snot that were quarantined to see what it would do. Some had initial good responses but then the snot reappeared or got worse and those were culled.

The vaccine has shown a couple breeders carriers that they thought were healthy and just had natural resistance to P.

Everyone assumes that if you have P go through your herd and a few never come down with it that they are the strong ones, the ones that have a natural immunity to it.

Instead some breeders that have dealt with P in the past have found out that they had carriers. Makes you wonder if that is why, after culling for it the past 100 yrs, we are still dealing with it on a very regular basis.

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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#38  Unread postby Dood » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:50 am


Bacteria adapt and multiply much faster than rabbits, this is why we still have P.

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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#39  Unread postby Frecs » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:54 am


Dood wrote:Bacteria adapt and multiply much faster than rabbits, this is why we still have P.


And bacteria and viruses that adapt readily are near impossible to vaccinate against...
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#40  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:11 pm


LauraNJ wrote:
Frecs wrote:I'm very skeptical and very concerned that it is being used as a "cure" rather than a preventative.


From what I have seen and read, everyone is using it as a preventative at this point. A few breeders tried it out on ones who had white snot that were quarantined to see what it would do. Some had initial good responses but then the snot reappeared or got worse and those were culled.


And those are only the folks that are posting or writing about their results....how many others are using it as a "cure" because that is what they think it is and aren't telling anyone?

My main hesitation is the fact that the vaccinated rabbits in the study STILL CAME DOWN WITH PASTEURELLOSIS when they were given a challenge dose of P.Multocida. To me, that says that it does NOT prevent anything.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#41  Unread postby Miss M » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:36 pm


OneAcreFarm wrote:My main hesitation is the fact that the vaccinated rabbits in the study STILL CAME DOWN WITH PASTEURELLOSIS when they were given a challenge dose of P.Multocida. To me, that says that it does NOT prevent anything.

That is a pretty glaring issue.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#42  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:05 pm


Miss M wrote:
OneAcreFarm wrote:My main hesitation is the fact that the vaccinated rabbits in the study STILL CAME DOWN WITH PASTEURELLOSIS when they were given a challenge dose of P.Multocida. To me, that says that it does NOT prevent anything.

That is a pretty glaring issue.


Now, granted, the symptoms were less severe and they SEEMED to recover afterward. However, SHOWING SYMPTOMS tells me they are infected, whether the symptoms went away or not. That happens with normal P infections as well, but they still carry it.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#43  Unread postby TMTex » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:52 pm


Since my last update, the buck that was sneezing before being vaccinated continued to sneeze. I culled him and checked his lungs and general internals. Everything looked healthy and he was fed to the dogs, except for his organs. I'll cook them before the dogs get them, just to be safe.

I gave the doe who was vaccinated first her booster this evening. 2 days overdue, but within reason. Two others will be due a booster and two more will get their first vaccinations this weekend.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurel

Post Number:#44  Unread postby Madpiratebippy » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:09 am


I'm not a doctor, nor do I play on on TV, but I'm a biology nerd that's spent most my life around hospitals and doctors. The doctors of my acquaintance always tell me, when they first meet me, that I should go to med school, and then once they get to know me a bit better, tell me that I would never make it in residency, due to my... ah, shall we call it agressive and sarcastic personality? My inability to suffer fools would pretty much gaurentee that I'd fail out of residency. Immunology isn't as strong for me as some of the other things I get into, but since I've got a horse in the race (I'm mildly immunocomprimised, not HIV or anything exciting, left over effect from organ failure about 8 years ago), I've picked up a bit of information about how it all works to keep myself safe.

Frecs wrote:I'm very skeptical and very concerned that it is being used as a "cure" rather than a preventative.


Rabies vaccine is used, when caught early enough in the infection in a human, as a cure. There are a wide variety of vaccines that will produce cures if administered after the initial infection, however the testing process for that is so much more difficult and expensive than just testing for immune response before exposure to infectious agents, that it's pretty common for the medical profession to sort of look the other way and give the vaccine in the first place. That's why, for instance, you're not tested for any of the 4 strains of HPV before they give you the HPV shot, and no one is claiming that you might be able to be cured if you already have HPV before they give you the injection, but if it did resolve your HPV no one would be surprised at all.

If the post-infection vaccination cure rate testing is so expensive it's almost never done for human populations, much less veterinary medicine, where there's a lot less funding. I mean, the HPV vaccine prevents cancer in humans, no way rabbits are going to get that level of attention or funding!

MamaSheepdog wrote:I have not yet read the studies, so forgive me if this was addressed.

I have the same concerns as those stated above.

Given the fact that antibiotic therapy does not effect a cure due to limited blood flow to the sinuses, would not the same apply to the antibodies in the circulatory system? If they can't reach the sinuses and the resident bacteria, wont the animal always be carrying a possibly infective load of Pasteurella, though the rabbit itself is asymptomatic?


The real problem isn't the bloodflow to an area (although sinus infections are a pain in the butt to treat in humans because of the combination of mucus- lots and lots of bacteria food- and lack of direct blood flow and white cell activity, so I'm just going to assume it's the same in rabbits).

The real problem is that our bodies are very used to our friends, the helpful bacteria. I've read that up to 50% of a mammal's cells can be these friendly bacteria- so half the cells in your body might not be human cells, but a collection of symbiotic organisms to help you function. Your immune system dosen't kill these guys- think of the sharks from Finding Nemo saying "Lactobacillus are friends, not food!" and you've got a decent idea of how the immune system has to function.

The way a lot of bacterial infections manage to take over is that the outer protein layer of the cell isn't something that the immune system recognizes as a bad guy, so they let it slide, until it's waaaay to late. These sort of act like fingerprints, or locks (depending on their function) for the cells. If the immune system gets training that that particular fingerprint is a bad guy, they start taking them out before a large colony of them get going. My immune system is kind of butt tarded at this, which is why I'm moderately immunocomprimised. Every other immune system figures out that it's a bad guy at say, a million invading bacteria, and it takes my body until there's 50 million- in which case the infection is already a lot more intrenched, and it's a lot harder to get better after I've gotten sick.

If my kid brings home a cold, everyone else in the house will get it, and they all get sick for 3-4 days. It takes me 2-3 WEEKS to get over the same infection.

If your rabbit's immune system knows that Pasturella isn't a friend, it's going to start fighting the infection when it's small enough that it's body can easily handle it, instead of trying to play catch up when the body is already overwhelmed. So, your average rabbit without the vaccine is going to handle it like I handle a cold, where the rabbits that have the vaccine will be like everyone else in my family if they get exposed to it- their bodies will be able to take out the infection, vs. being taken out by the infection.

TMTex wrote:Just an update as requested.

One of my lactating Cali does was sneezing, most likely due to heat stress. I vaccinated her on June 20 and gave her 0.5cc oxytetracyline per day subcutaneously for 7 days. There was never any discharge. She sneezes every now and then, but they're still dry sneezes. A knot is forming at the vaccine injection site. Massaging the knot daily doesn't seem to have any effect. Otherwise, she seems fine.

I vaccinated our indoor pet rabbit (mutt) and a newly acquired Flemish Giant today (Saturday, June 29).


Small knots at vaccine sites are really common and nothing to be worried about. I almost always get them myself when I get a shot. I believe those are called benign granulomas. They go away in a week or so. I can also say that it's likely the buns will look a bit off their feed while their immune systems are learning how to fight this new infection- I'm always sick for 2-3 days after a shot. After a flu shot I get sore joints, slight fever, headaches, etc. The reason I still get them is if I got the flu WITHOUT the shot, instead of feeling mildly crummy for 3 days, I'd be sick for a month solid, and probably end up with another opportunistic infection at the same time. Last time that happened a cold turned into something else and I ended up with a kidney infection serious enough to dump me in the hospital.

I have to ask (I don't know enough about immunology in general, let alone in rabbits), would P be able to sufficiently colonize in the sinuses to cause a problematic infection? If the vaccine empowers the immune system, and it passes from the sinuses to the general bloodstream, wouldn't it then be fought off - removing the concern of transference via parasites?

If the animal is truly asymptomatic, the P wouldn't become airborne via sneezing/coughing, so the only outlet would be other bodily fluids?

Not trying to be argumentative. I'm simply curious on how the disease is transmitted/how the vaccine prevents transference from colonized sinuses as you asked.
[/quote]

Many diseases can morph how they are spread. There was a headline not too long ago about a mass grave in England where they buried Black Death victims, and someone pointed out that they looked like they were infected by airborne contamination- well, yes, but that's hardly tabloid front page news. Tracking down infection vectors for diseases is really tricky. We've been looking for the wild vector pool for Ebola for 30 years and haven't found it, for instance, and it took 10 years to figure out how HIV was spread. Black Death starts off as a rat/flea vector- fleas feed on infected rats, the rats die (fleas are fine), and then the fleas bite humans. The lymph is the primary target of Black Death, but lymph goes everywhere, and if it gets into the lungs, which is a secondary target, then it can spread through cough droplets. Voila, your flea-borne disease is now airborne.

Pasturella is primarily spread through droplets or bites. Here's my take on it:

IN MY NOT VERY HUMBLE OPINION, YOU ARE BEING INSANE IF YOU DO NOT VACCINATE AND YOU HAVE ANY OF THIS GOING ON IN YOUR HOUSE:

  • If you have someone in your house who will be interacting with the rabbits who is under the age of 10. The reason kids get so many upper respiratory infections when adults don't, is that their immune systems are still developing. Basically, you can treat a 7 year old kid or younger as an immunocomprimised adult.
  • Any of the adults in your house are immunocomprimised. Functionally, this includes pregnant women, and people over 60. Their immune systems aren't at full blast. Even if the pregnant women aren't going to be handling the rabbits. Weird stuff happens to babies if their mothers get sick, even as adults. You're much more likely to be born in November or December if you're a schizophrenic. Turns out you mother getting the flu in the last trimester of pregnancy is a risk factor for mental illness in adulthood- and honestly, science just Does Not Really Understand how neonatal immune responses effect people in the long term. It is not worth the risk.
  • Anyone taking care of the rabbits has Asthma or any chronic lung issues, that makes them much, much, much more susceptible to lung infections, especially from airborne diseases like Pasturella. Smokers, CPOD, Emphysema, and chronic bronchitis are a few of the giant warning flags you need to watch out for.
  • You have cats, dogs, or chickens. All of them can carry Pasturella as part of their normal biota, but Pasturella is the guy that is kind of obnoxious who brings the really huge jerks to the party- in dogs, cats, and chickens it's not something that will kill them, but it leaves them more susceptible to a lot of other diseases.
  • You raw feed to cats or dogs
  • You don't have a closed rabbitry
  • Your rabbits might sneeze on you, bite you, or scratch you- the three most common ways rabbits infect humans.
  • You go to shows where you might be exposed, or your rabbits exposed, to Pasturella
  • You don't have a closed herd and might bring other rabbits in.
  • Anyone handling the rabbits is allergic to penicillin or tetracycline, which are the drugs most commonly used for Pasturella.

My kids are old enough they're not a consideration, but my immune system is not that great, hubby is down to less than a pack a month but has been a smoker for years plus he's allergic to tetracycline, and I want to feed culls to my dogs, I'm going to immunize my animals. It's just not worth the risk to me to possibly loose half my animals-or more- or even worse, end up sick myself.

I know some people don't like the thought of eating meat that has had vaccines in it, but when I compare that to the possibility of being on antibiotics for the next two months and too sick to go outside, I think I'm going to get less chemical exposure through the antibiotics. The risks of this vaccine compared to the risks of Pasturella are just way, way, way in favor of the vaccine.

I hope this was helpful to someone, if I said anything confusing or unclear, please let me know and I'll try to explain it better.
Last edited by Madpiratebippy on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurel

Post Number:#45  Unread postby dayna » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:20 am


Madpiratebippy wrote:I'm not a doctor, nor do I play on on TV,


HA! You sound like me. I say that too.

I did choose to vaccinate all my rabbits. Before vaccinating we had snotty noses and some deaths. Since vaccinating (even vaccinating sick animals) all animals vaccinated recovered, no more snot illness.

So anyone can take that for what it's worth.

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