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Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#16  Unread postby Bob Glass » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:18 pm


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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#17  Unread postby Bob Glass » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:39 am


Dayna, I think these are the questions:

1. Has this drug been tested in pregnant rabbits?

We have not done controlled studies in pregnant or nursing does, but we have used the vaccine in both and have seen no negative impact. The vaccine induces a strong immune response that may cause the animal some stress fever, malaise) and I hesitate to give any injections to pregnant does just to avoid the stress of handling.

2. Does this drug pass into milk on nursing does?
The vaccine does not pass into the colostrum, but the antibodies the vaccine induces can pass to the kits in the colostrum giving them "passive" immunity. This immunity last only a short period after the kits stop nursing, they do not develop their own immunity without being vaccinated. In our rabbitry we vaccinate kits at weaning (6 weeks).


We also have not done controlled studies looking at long term (multi year) vaccine use, but in my barn we have had rabbits on the vaccine for several years and have not seen any problems.

There is another question about treating infected/symptomatic animals for which we have not done studies and have not data to support benefit of lack of benefit. Some people have reported a decrease in symptoms in these animals, some animals appear to have no such decreased symptoms. We do not know if the animals with resolution of symptoms are clear of Pasteurella or in they continue to harbor the bacteria. Studies are planned to investigate this question.
Last edited by Miss M on Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed duplicate. :)

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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#18  Unread postby TMTex » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:16 am


Miss M wrote:I am able to open them just fine in Open Office. :)

The "BunnyVac Information" opened up with two pages, though the second is blank. It appears that everything is on the first page, though, and that the second page was added just as an error in translation from .docx to .odt.


Same thing here with MS Office. It might be a page formatting thing, but it doesn't affect the information.
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Re: P vaccine causing bloody noses and particles

Post Number:#19  Unread postby annie » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:46 pm


I am interested too, hopefully there is a way to lower the shipping cost or get several of us together to combine our orders.

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Re: P vaccine causing bloody noses and particles

Post Number:#20  Unread postby Frecs » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:23 am


Bob Glass wrote:... We have had many more reports of infected/symptomatic animals whose symptoms have diminished or resolved after vaccination. We have not done any studies to determine the effect (good or bad) on infected animals.
...

It is my belief that this vaccine can be a useful tool in combating Pasteurella infection, but each breeder/producer should do his own research and decide if this is a tool that will provide benefit in their operation. I am available to answer questions.


I wanted to remark on the two statements quoted above.

Vaccines are not intended to *treat infected animal/human*. Vaccines are to *prevent* infection. I've heard of an number of breeders using this vaccine as a "cure" for already sick animals. This is a major problem, in my estimation, as then animals will be sold or taken to shows because "they are symptom free=cured=vaccinated" and other animals are going to get sick.

The other issue to my thinking is that there is not *yet* any evidence that the vaccine is actually killing the latent bacteria in a vaccinated rabbit. Thus, a vaccinated rabbit could still be a carrier able to infect others.

Sorry, at this point, I don't intend to vaccinate nor do I want my rabbits exposed to rabbits that have been. I understand this is a "dead bacteria vaccine" but I'm not convince it is effective in preventing a rabbit from being a carrier.

Would Dr. Glass like to address these concerns?
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Re: P vaccine causing bloody noses and particles

Post Number:#21  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:29 am


Frecs wrote:
Bob Glass wrote:... We have had many more reports of infected/symptomatic animals whose symptoms have diminished or resolved after vaccination. We have not done any studies to determine the effect (good or bad) on infected animals.
...

It is my belief that this vaccine can be a useful tool in combating Pasteurella infection, but each breeder/producer should do his own research and decide if this is a tool that will provide benefit in their operation. I am available to answer questions.


I wanted to remark on the two statements quoted above.

Vaccines are not intended to *treat infected animal/human*. Vaccines are to *prevent* infection. I've heard of an number of breeders using this vaccine as a "cure" for already sick animals. This is a major problem, in my estimation, as then animals will be sold or taken to shows because "they are symptom free=cured=vaccinated" and other animals are going to get sick.

The other issue to my thinking is that there is not *yet* any evidence that the vaccine is actually killing the latent bacteria in a vaccinated rabbit. Thus, a vaccinated rabbit could still be a carrier able to infect others.

Sorry, at this point, I don't intend to vaccinate nor do I want my rabbits exposed to rabbits that have been. I understand this is a "dead bacteria vaccine" but I'm not convince it is effective in preventing a rabbit from being a carrier.

Would Dr. Glass like to address these concerns?


I have the same concerns as Tina and would be interested in hearing Dr. Glass's response.
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Re: P vaccine causing bloody noses and particles

Post Number:#22  Unread postby MamaSheepdog » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:08 pm


I have not yet read the studies, so forgive me if this was addressed.

I have the same concerns as those stated above.

Given the fact that antibiotic therapy does not effect a cure due to limited blood flow to the sinuses, would not the same apply to the antibodies in the circulatory system? If they can't reach the sinuses and the resident bacteria, wont the animal always be carrying a possibly infective load of Pasteurella, though the rabbit itself is asymptomatic?
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#23  Unread postby Miss M » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:59 pm


Okay, y'all, I merged the two remaining vaccine threads into this one. I was hoping for a little more control over the result, but here it is. It's messy, but I'll be going through it to try to bring some order to it.

We really wanted all the discussion on the vaccine in one thread, because it will be easiest for Bob Glass to find the questions to answer if they are not spread out over a bunch of threads. :)

If anything you posted in one of the vaccine threads has disappeared, you have my sincere apologies. Please feel free to post it again. I think I have all the posts here, though.
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Re: P vaccine causing bloody noses and particles

Post Number:#24  Unread postby Cottie » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:04 pm


MamaSheepdog wrote:I have not yet read the studies, so forgive me if this was addressed.

I have the same concerns as those stated above.

Given the fact that antibiotic therapy does not effect a cure due to limited blood flow to the sinuses, would not the same apply to the antibodies in the circulatory system? If they can't reach the sinuses and the resident bacteria, wont the animal always be carrying a possibly infective load of Pasteurella, though the rabbit itself is asymptomatic?

Good question!

I have to ask (I don't know enough about immunology in general, let alone in rabbits), would P be able to sufficiently colonize in the sinuses to cause a problematic infection? If the vaccine empowers the immune system, and it passes from the sinuses to the general bloodstream, wouldn't it then be fought off - removing the concern of transference via parasites?

If the animal is truly asymptomatic, the P wouldn't become airborne via sneezing/coughing, so the only outlet would be other bodily fluids?

Not trying to be argumentative. I'm simply curious on how the disease is transmitted/how the vaccine prevents transference from colonized sinuses as you asked.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#25  Unread postby TMTex » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:35 am


Just an update as requested.

One of my lactating Cali does was sneezing, most likely due to heat stress. I vaccinated her on June 20 and gave her 0.5cc oxytetracyline per day subcutaneously for 7 days. There was never any discharge. She sneezes every now and then, but they're still dry sneezes. A knot is forming at the vaccine injection site. Massaging the knot daily doesn't seem to have any effect. Otherwise, she seems fine.

I vaccinated our indoor pet rabbit (mutt) and a newly acquired Flemish Giant today (Saturday, June 29).
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Re: P vaccine causing bloody noses and particles

Post Number:#26  Unread postby OneAcreFarm » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:36 am


RJSchaefer wrote:
MamaSheepdog wrote:I have not yet read the studies, so forgive me if this was addressed.

I have the same concerns as those stated above.

Given the fact that antibiotic therapy does not effect a cure due to limited blood flow to the sinuses, would not the same apply to the antibodies in the circulatory system? If they can't reach the sinuses and the resident bacteria, wont the animal always be carrying a possibly infective load of Pasteurella, though the rabbit itself is asymptomatic?

Good question!

I have to ask (I don't know enough about immunology in general, let alone in rabbits), would P be able to sufficiently colonize in the sinuses to cause a problematic infection? If the vaccine empowers the immune system, and it passes from the sinuses to the general bloodstream, wouldn't it then be fought off - removing the concern of transference via parasites?

If the animal is truly asymptomatic, the P wouldn't become airborne via sneezing/coughing, so the only outlet would be other bodily fluids?

Not trying to be argumentative. I'm simply curious on how the disease is transmitted/how the vaccine prevents transference from colonized sinuses as you asked.


P typically DOES colonize the nasal passages and sinus cavities, which is why antibiotics don't every fully get rid of the infection in rabbits, since rabbits have very little blood flow that reaches the sinus cavities. P is not airborne, it is spread by "droplet", which is why even a few feet or a barrier can make a difference in whether an animal gets infected by neighbor or not. If a rabbit already has an infection, that vaccine is not likely going to get rid of it. It may lessen the symptoms, just like antibiotics, but vaccines are not meant for treatment, they are meant as a preventative. You don't see them giving flu vaccine to people with the flu. In fact, they make you wait till you are well before you can get it.
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#27  Unread postby TMTex » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:24 pm


Another update...I vaccinated a newly acquired 8 week old Californian buck. The others are free of any symptoms. The doe who was sneezing has stopped.

<edit> The knot on the first doe's injection site has grown to about the size of half a small grape. </edit>
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#28  Unread postby DonnerSurvivor » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:00 am


Kinda off topic but since this is somewhat near the top anyways does anyone know if panlabs is open on saturday or sunday for taking orders? Or does anyone know their regular business hours?

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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#29  Unread postby Frecs » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:47 pm


The echo of silence from the good Dr. is deafening....
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Re: Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

Post Number:#30  Unread postby LauraNJ » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:16 pm


Frecs wrote:The echo of silence from the good Dr. is deafening....


I'd expect that they got a hold of him already. He has mentioned that the calls go directly to his cell that he always has with him.

I can't think of any other Dr that develops a vaccine and then answers questions on various forums or has calls go to their cell phone or to their email that they themself answer? I think that is pretty awesome.

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