I'm furious!

When I checked Branwyn's kits last night before I went to bed, they were nice and toasty warm, with lots of dryer lint and hay covering them. This morning, Branwyn was in the nest box, and I was hoping she was feeding them, but NOOOO! :evil: One kit was out of the nest box and evidently had been trying to get out of the cage. Three more were in the nest box, but cold and not moving, and Branwyn had pooped in her box again. I have all four wrapped in a warm towel inside my sweatshirt right now. The other two were in a different spot in the nest box. Those two seem to be doing ok (and even look fed--I think), so I brought them inside, nest box and all, even though it's not at all cold in the garage.

What should I do next?

Just make sure all the kits are placed in the same spot as the two fed kits were. Maybe place the nestbox in a different part of the cage. Or you can keep the box away and bring them out to her a couple times a day till they get a bit bigger. Good luck!

is it a traditional nest box?

and while I understand you being upset try not to mad at her - she's a first time doe and obviously her instincts haven't quite kicked in - some does never get it sadly

I have had a fair few does have litters they've let die over the years - I really think some just don't get what they are supposed to do with them - it's a shame but not a fault thing

Devon's Mom Lauren":3ufdyzv1 said:

Just make sure all the kits are placed in the same spot as the two fed kits were.

Click to expand...

Right now I'm just hoping I can revive them. If I'm successful, I'll put them with the other two. I'm thinking that in any case, I'll keep them in the house and just take them out to her for feedings.<br /><br />__________ Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:30 am __________<br /><br />

Brody":3ufdyzv1 said:

is it a traditional nest box?

Click to expand...

Yes, it's a standard metal nest box that we filled with hay. She never pulled any fur, kindled on the wire, and had been using the nest box for a potty box even before she kindled.

and while I understand you being upset try not to mad at her - she's a first time doe and obviously her instincts haven't quite kicked in - some does never get it sadly

Click to expand...

I guess I'm more frustrated and disappointed than anything. As Maggie said yesterday, we've waited a LONG time for kits. We tried for months to get some Cals, and every time we thought we had some lined up, it fell through for one reason or another. We made the trip from Texas to Arizona to pick up eight Brazilians (which are in very short supply), two of which we kept (the others went to Missouri and Arkansas to breeders there). The three does were supposed to be bred, but ours never kindled, and we haven't been able to get her to breed since. Our buck has had issues (abcess, injured back, salt/mineral deficiency), but thankfully has recovered nicely each time. We just got two more bred Brazilian does last month, and this is our first kindling. I'm to the point of wondering what else can go wrong.

I think it's a good idea to keep the nest box in the house and just take it to her twice a day for feedings. It's hard to say exactly what happened. Could be she went to feed them and didn't cover them up. Could be they get dragged on her teats and couldn't find their way back to the warmth. I hope the chilled ones make it... get them really, really toasty and active before putting them back in the nest.

If the chilled ones don't survive, it will be even more necessary to keep the nest box in the house. Two kits cannot generate enough heat to manage in a cold environment. You have another doe due any time now, I think? If she kindles soon, you may have the option of fostering the two onto her.

I know it is hard not to be angry, but please remember that Branwyn is a first-time momma and will likely do a lot better next time.

MaggieJ":33dzig5i said:

I hope the chilled ones make it... get them really, really toasty and active before putting them back in the nest.

Click to expand...

How long should I try warming them up before I give up? Should I keep them wrapped in a towel, or put them directly on my skin? (I'm not well-endowed enough to put all four into my bra. LOL!)

You have another doe due any time now, I think? If she kindles soon, you may have the option of fostering the two onto her.

Click to expand...

Right, Dot is due to kindle any day now. She hasn't pulled any fur yet, though, and she's using the nest box for a potty box as well. She and Branwyn are sisters.

please remember that Branwyn is a first-time momma and will likely do a lot better next time.

Click to expand...

I sure hope you're right. I really have had high hopes for her, especially since she's my favorite color.

re warming...they need outside warmth..they're too little to generate their own warmth. Put a heating pad around the towel they're in. Put the towel next to a whole bunch of bottles filled with hot water. Put a heatlamp on them. (not close down). You're trying to add warmth for a while until they warm up. If they feel cool or cold to the touch, you can put them under your sweater on your skin...but even your skin temp (86 usually) isn't warm enough. BUT it's a good wayto tell if they're still cold.

They should feel warm to the touch...warmer than your skin temp.

Just be careful not to burn them. heating pad on low, for instance.

Do the chilled ones seem alive or dead? If there are still signs of life, warm them until they are pink and active... and then a little longer. If they seem dead, they may still revive, but they will need longer. I don't know at what point to tell you to give up.

Ann's suggestions for extra heat are good ones. I use a wine bottle preheated with hot tap water and then refilled. You can pull a sock over it to make it safe and lay it along one side of the box. Put a little hay against it and then put the babies in a hollow next to it. They will gravitate toward the heat or away as they need to, provided they have revived enough to move.

It would also mean that you will not have to sit around with baby bunnies in your shirt, which gets tiresome very quickly.

For emergency fast warm ups, I pop a dry hand towel in the microwave and nuke until it is as warm as it can be and still be handled without burning tender newborn bunny skin. I wrap the kit in that and tuck it under my shirt. I always warm up another towel so I can transfer the kit if the first towel cools off too fast. As soon as the kit starts moving or squeaking, I'll move the warming kit to a box that has a waterbottle in the bottom, keeping it in the towel.
Marian

Anntann":1j38bdvu said:

re warming...they need outside warmth..they're too little to generate their own warmth. Put a heating pad around the towel they're in. Put the towel next to a whole bunch of bottles filled with hot water. Put a heatlamp on them. (not close down).

Click to expand...

Ok, no heating lamp available, but they're wrapped in a clean shop cloth now, on top of a heating pad (on low), surrounded by bottles of hot water in socks, with a towel draped over the whole thing.

__________ Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:22 am __________

MaggieJ":1j38bdvu said:

Do the chilled ones seem alive or dead?

Click to expand...

To be honest, I don't see any signs of life. They're cool to the touch, not cold, about like they were when we found them after they were born yesterday, but at least then they were moving. Now there's no movement at all.

It would also mean that you will not have to sit around with baby bunnies in your shirt, which gets tiresome very quickly.

Click to expand...

I was ok with it, but it didn't seem to be doing any good.

__________ Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:23 am __________

Marian":1j38bdvu said:

For emergency fast warm ups, I pop a dry hand towel in the microwave and nuke until it is as warm as it can be and still be handled without burning tender newborn bunny skin. I wrap the kit in that and tuck it under my shirt.

Click to expand...

That's what I did first, but it didn't seem to be helping any.<br /><br />__________ Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:25 am __________<br /><br />One other thing: What should I do about the other two in the nest box that are still ok? I brought the box into the house, and they're covered in dryer lint and hay. Should I put a hot water bottle in with them, as well, since there's only two of them?

Trinity, you may have to give up on the chilled kits. It won't hurt to leave them for a while longer, but it doesn't sound too promising.

The two... depends on how warm your house is. It won't hurt to give them a bottle in a sock along one side of the box... Just don't put them right against it. They'll gravitate if it feels good to them.

MaggieJ":1k2hhc5y said:

Trinity, you may have to give up on the chilled kits. It won't hurt to leave them for a while longer, but it doesn't sound too promising.

Click to expand...

There's no question that they're warm now. I'll probably leave them there until after lunch, and if still nothing, I'll call it quits with those four.

The two... depends on how warm your house is. It won't hurt to give them a bottle in a sock along one side of the box... Just don't put them right against it. They'll gravitate if it feels good to them.

Click to expand...

I think I'll do that, and I'll also keep them in the laundry room (which tends to be warmer than the rest of the house). I need to run a load of laundry anyway. . .

I'm so sorry Trinity, you'll just have to do everything that they are saying, that's what I would do, I hope that your kits survive, it would be an absolute shame if they didn't good luck though and keep us updated.

Logan

oh trintiy - I'm so sorry they haven't bounced back
hang in there

I'm really reluctant now to leave the two remaining kits with mom for very long (remember, she stomped on and pooped on three of the other four), and our first attempt at holding her so she would nurse resulted in nothing but a few nasty scratches for me.

They're in the nest box now, which is in my laundry room (in the house). I went to Tractor Supply and got some kitten replacer and a tiny bottle. I'm not sure the nipple on the bottle is small enough; if not, I have several syringes with smaller tips. I'm REALLY hoping that my other doe, Dot, kindles soon and does it right, so that I can foster these two to her.

Any thoughts?

Oh, and what should I do with the four that didn't make it? We don't have any dogs or other animals. Should I just bury them out in the back yard?

I'm sorry they didn't make it, you certainly did all you possibly could. When I handfed my kits, I found the 1cc syringe the best for newborns. A friend of mine swears by using Q-Tips, but I have never tried that.

Marian

do you have a compost pile? if you can bury them in the compost they'll give back to the soil at least - or bury them if you want

be very careful of a couple things if you have to hand feed
1) they are always warm before they eat
2) you give their little butts a little rub to help them "go" (either before or after eating whichever works better for you)
3) you are REALLY careful not to let them aspirate any fluid into their lungs ... in other words they have to take the milk replacer - you can't force it into them


hang in there - this can be a very tough journey

Brody":2d6svm8m said:

do you have a compost pile? if you can bury them in the compost they'll give back to the soil at least - or bury them if you want

Click to expand...

We have several square-foot gardens. The kit that was born dead (or died shortly after birth) is there, so I guess I'll put the other four there, as well. I just wasn't sure whether I should try opening them up, or save them for the neighbors' dogs (at least one neighbor raw-feeds), or what.

be very careful of a couple things if you have to hand feed

Click to expand...

I read a bunch of threads on hand-feeding over on HT and got lots of good info. I still have a few questions, though.

1) they are always warm before they eat

Click to expand...

They seem to be staying warm in the nest box in the house right now, so hopefully they're good on that point.

2) you give their little butts a little rub to help them "go" (either before or after eating whichever works better for you)

Click to expand...

I read about that on the HT threads, especially about getting them to pee, but I'm clueless about that part of rabbit anatomy (especially kits), so I'm not sure exactly where to rub them to make them pee.

3) you are REALLY careful not to let them aspirate any fluid into their lungs ... in other words they have to take the milk replacer - you can't force it into them

Click to expand...

Do I understand correctly that I should have them upright (holding them as though they're sort of on all fours)?

hang in there - this can be a very tough journey

Click to expand...

I'm thinking that I'll put the nest box out in the garage with mom this evening for a while, keeping a close watch to make sure she doesn't stomp on them, and then bring them in for the night. If they don't look fed when I bring them in, I'll try hand-feeding them then. Does that sound like a good plan?

When I lost my kits, I buried them.

Yes, taking them to her under supervision is the best thing to do. In theory, when you take the nest box to Branwyn, she should be willing to hop in an nurse them. The pressure from the milk should cue her to do this. Sometimes it takes a time or two. Hand-raising kits from day one is very difficult. I hope Dot kindles soon!

You can bury the kits in the backyard. If you know anyone with snakes, they would likely be pleased to take them as feed. If this is the case, they can be stored in the freezer until pick-up.