PhoenixFarm
Well-known member
Devon's Mom Lauren what on earth do you mean by "rescue breeding" that's a term I am not at all familiar with[/quote said:
Hypothetical breeding-- Build a herd
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PulpFaction
Well-known member
I am starting my Silver Fox herd with two half sisters and an unrelated borrowed buck. Can't afford shipping the suckers in right now! There are a lot of reasons someone might start with less than ideal stock.
Damnit terry, Now I have to do more reading, that makes entirely too much sense, and provides a way for me to make my lines separate and distinct, as I have a number of 'out does', but only 2 foundation bucks
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
That article is correct for linebreeding and increasing your herd... BUT it works on the assumption that all foundation animals are "purebred" This example will not work with limited animals of different or mixed breeds. Also the original breeds mentioned in the hypothetical question and the resulting breed wanted are far from rare! The "rescue breeding" model also goes back to the foundation ewes a lot so it would be impossible in the rabbit case to get a "pure" pedigree if the foundation does keep showing up!
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
Yep that article and the livestock conservatory are dealing with purebreds only.. so that makes a big difference to the purebred breeder 
Its very informative!
Its very informative!Frosted Rabbits
Well-known member
Actually, the article is based on 'pure' foundations-- BUT- when rescuing gentics, one must sometimes use what is most compatible. Wildlife experts are using Texas panthers to improve the health of the Florida Panther. Many rescued dog breeds had literally dissappeared from the face of the earth (English Bulldog, for one) and were re=established using what was known of the original ancestry. Cattle and horse breeds are being preserved by increasing the 'percentage' of the desired breed in each succeeding generation * pure female, use half breed son over her-- result, 3/4 breed, Use a son from that breeding. Works faster with animals that have litters as opposed to singles or twins, but the idea is to keep doubling back to increase the percentages. Of course, if the lone purebred is a male, multiple females can be used to get the ball rolling. The article uses the pure sheep because we have that, but there are articles on 'saving' the genetics of other species/breeds where similar attributes are sought in the animals used for the F1 crosses.Devon's Mom Lauren":o60j709k said:Yep that article and the livestock conservatory are dealing with purebreds only.. so that makes a big difference to the purebred breeder
Tell ya what, using my AmChin buck over the CAlxNZ doe was a blessing--I got the agouti right off, and it looks like I also increased the size a bit. It should only take one more generation to get the pearl banding when I find abuck for her.
don't get stuck in the 'purebred' mindset, everything came from somewhere!
PulpFaction
Well-known member
Frosted Rabbits":67d20uhx said:
I'll drink to that!
Frosted Rabbits
Well-known member
PulpFaction":1kq6em03 said:
Corn, wheat, rye, potato or fruit based? (Don't think I am not perusing other threads :buds: )
Barley, actually.
Frosted Rabbits
Well-known member
[album][/album]eco2pia":bqqp7iw5 said:
OOps, forgot that one :beer2: heres a round on me...
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
Devon has already posted about our Argente Brun project, so I am far from being stuck in a "purebred" mindset". I will put this a different way then.. the examples you have given do not compare to the hypothetical question, its like apples and oranges. Florida cougars and texas cougars are basically the same species they just live in different areas and have been given different names so breeding one group to another is widening the gene pool but is not exactly recreating anything. Most dog breeds are less then 200 years old and according to what country they are in are bred to a different standard.Yes standards change, the bulldog was never extinct just "evolved' according to taste. Yes there are some who want to get the type that was present 200 years ago and are doing that but they are far from the mainstream as well.
Back to our Argente project... yes we need to widen the gene pool and increase numbers. BUT we will not just pick anything up to put into that gene pool we need to be selective and make sure there is compatibility as well as decent type and other virtues present. So things like adding a rew with an unknown background will just screw up the colour for the next 40 generations or so...catch my drift? That is why I feel that the original project as presented wouldn't work or continue to work in later generations for the goals initially stated.
Back to our Argente project... yes we need to widen the gene pool and increase numbers. BUT we will not just pick anything up to put into that gene pool we need to be selective and make sure there is compatibility as well as decent type and other virtues present. So things like adding a rew with an unknown background will just screw up the colour for the next 40 generations or so...catch my drift? That is why I feel that the original project as presented wouldn't work or continue to work in later generations for the goals initially stated.
Frosted Rabbits
Well-known member
Devon's Mom Lauren":3esgjq5i said:
I don't recall I had a REW in the original trio. And you mentioned the developement time of dog breeds-- how long have rabbit breeds been around? I would be willing to bet rabbit breeds were 'set' or developed long after dog breeds were being defined. Florida panthers are BLACK, not the tawny color of Texas panthers. and the Himilayan housecat is the same species as the DSH. The idea was to work with what you were presented with, and build from there. There would have to be heavy culling. Most of us know that two NZW can produce black kits. Devon has cleared up the recessive factor of 'wool'
The White terrier, the foundation of the original English Bulldog( and several other 'bulldog' breeds) became extinct before the English bulldog did. The EB was 'reconstructed', and it's form altered for who knows what reason.
If you are trying to create a Brun d'Argent, you already have a lot of genetic information that the developers of the Champagne d'Argent did not have, as well as breeds of the proper body structure, coat type, and silvering process.You also get the benefit of being able to write the standard for the new breed. Not manypeole get that chance...
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
Florida White are REWS. Argente breeds are hundreds of years old and according to some research may be linked with the Knights Templar.If correct that would put it closer to over a thousand (crusades). The Argente Brun is not a new breed/colour it has been around as long as the first Argentes.They almost disappeared because nobody was interested in breeding them both in the UK/Europe and especially here. The standard was already there, Mr. white just re-presented it to our club here in Canada. So now it is a COD in arba as well. This is a purebred project and a real example of the Breeds Conservatory's idea of the term "rescue breeding". Even with the limited gene pool one still needs to carefully select breeding pairs and sometimes pass over an individual because they may have certain substandard qualities that one should not linebreed on at all.
The black panther" is a melanistic version of the regular colour. We have it here in the gray squirrel population, most of the gray squirels here are black because of this mutation, they are still gray squirrels not a separate class. ( pure)
The white terrier lives on (basically), we have four here called Jack Russells. You must be thinking of the English Bull Terrier, it is a cross of the original bulldog and the English white terrier.There is also the Bull mastiff a cross of bull and mastiffs. Infact the bulldogg was used in so many crosses to get different breeds , one has to wonder how it would be "extinct"?There are many English breeds that were drastically changed once they got to America, some would be the Foxhound and Stratfordshire terrier, both of which were so drastically altered that they needed their own class or breed name. As for rabbits, yes there are many modern breeds that were recently developed most notably the dwarf breeds and the fur mutations of the old meat breeds that gave rise to some separate meat breeds.But the Angoras and Beverens,Belgian Hares and Argentes and the Giant breeds, they are are all quite a bit older than the New World..and quite a bit older than most dog breeds although all domesticated animals pretty much follow the same path of development.
As for cats, well heaven knows whats up with them....they probably domesticated us..
The black panther" is a melanistic version of the regular colour. We have it here in the gray squirrel population, most of the gray squirels here are black because of this mutation, they are still gray squirrels not a separate class. ( pure)
The white terrier lives on (basically), we have four here called Jack Russells. You must be thinking of the English Bull Terrier, it is a cross of the original bulldog and the English white terrier.There is also the Bull mastiff a cross of bull and mastiffs. Infact the bulldogg was used in so many crosses to get different breeds , one has to wonder how it would be "extinct"?There are many English breeds that were drastically changed once they got to America, some would be the Foxhound and Stratfordshire terrier, both of which were so drastically altered that they needed their own class or breed name. As for rabbits, yes there are many modern breeds that were recently developed most notably the dwarf breeds and the fur mutations of the old meat breeds that gave rise to some separate meat breeds.But the Angoras and Beverens,Belgian Hares and Argentes and the Giant breeds, they are are all quite a bit older than the New World..and quite a bit older than most dog breeds although all domesticated animals pretty much follow the same path of development.
As for cats, well heaven knows whats up with them....they probably domesticated us..
