how many greens??

In Eighteen's poop corner I've noticed some soft poops accumulating on the wire....should I be worried? She seems fine & the babies have the cleanest butts ever

How much/many greens do you give to your rabbits? It seems like they love the greens. I've given organic Spinach, organic spring mix, chickory, parsley, watercress, radish (both greens & roots), cilantro, dandelion greens, romaine lettuce, kale, collard greens, beet tops, carrots, cantaloupe, squash, zucchini & apple. Not all at once-I usually give 3 or 4 items at a time. I give Eighteen (mom with five 3 week old kits) a.... good pile there has to be a better way to measure- by weight maybe? It seems like they have slacked off on their alfalfa but they are eating their coastal hay bedding as fast as i can put it in. They really love rolled oats & mom is picking out the whole oats from her feeder- leaving the BOSS.

Six (has Five 2-day old kits) seems quiet- but she has always been a quiet bunny. There may be a slightly decreased volume of poop but I am not surprised since she spent a good 24-36 hours frantically running all over the cage nest building/hair pulling/kindling & didn't eat much during that time. We have had terrible T-storms here the last 3 afternoons so I haven't been able to spend a lot of time out there observing them but I did see her eat her greens & some oatmeal tonight. The babies all look well fed except the runt. But I have noticed that their poop is sticking to their butts. Just a little hard dried clump right over the anus on all of them. I cleaned them all up & no one seemed irritated. i wonder if this has to do with too many greens & not enough hay for mom?? She has cut back on her alfalfa but she might be eating some of the coastal bedding in the nest.

Tonight the buns were all really p*ssed (am I aloud to type that here?) because I didn't give any greens or veggies- just oats, oatmeal, BOSS & 2 types of hay.

Should I be worried? Have I gone overboard with the greens/veggies? Should I give some probiotics? Is there a recommended amount (# of greens/veggies per # body weight or something)?

As usual Thanks! You all are great! :bow: :bow:

hard to say.

You feed pellets as well?

I find that if a person feed pellets they need to watch how many greens they give as you don't want to too much undo the balance that pellets bring. I'd lay off the boss, give just a nice handful of greens once a day (doesn't need to be huge), and make them eat their pellets.

Sounds like maybe too much protein there if you're feeding pellets. I feed a mix of grains and alfalfa for the protein...and a TON of greens. I also give them timothy(grass) hay for fiber.

The girls that get pellets (the meat rabbits with kits) also get timothy hay daily..and a ton of greens. Mainly dandelion and plantain and grasses.

If by carrots, squash, apples you mean the fruit and not the greens? Those are higher in sugar, and might be causing some issues with mamma's milk. Not sure.

The problem may be with the types of fresh foods. While I see no harm in giving small quantities of the fruits and veggies you mention, rabbits are herbivores not vegetarians and in the wild would be eating mainly leaves of weeds, grasses and bark and twigs from trees.

If you intend to continue with veggies and fruits other than as an occasional treat, you may want to read on some of the house rabbit websites on how to manage this without the rabbits getting poopy butt. You might find this one useful for troubleshooting poopy butt issues:
https://www.binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/Di ... fault.aspx

Lots of hay helps and you've heard me time after time extol the virtues of raspberry/blackberry/strawberry leaves as well as plantain and shepherd's purse. I know you were having trouble finding some of these in your area.

I recall that you were hoping to go pelletless for the rabbits. This is going to be difficult to do if you do not have access to a source of good weeds in abundance. You may have to feed at least some pellets until you get a plan in place and have some plants well established for the the rabbits' use.

ladysown":3s8iic42 said:

hard to say.

You feed pellets as well?

Click to expand...

Nope, no pellets.<br /><br />__________ Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:16 am __________<br /><br />

Anntann":3s8iic42 said:

Sounds like maybe too much protein there if you're feeding pellets. I feed a mix of grains and alfalfa for the protein...and a TON of greens. I also give them timothy(grass) hay for fiber.

The girls that get pellets (the meat rabbits with kits) also get timothy hay daily..and a ton of greens. Mainly dandelion and plantain and grasses.

If by carrots, squash, apples you mean the fruit and not the greens? Those are higher in sugar, and might be causing some issues with mamma's milk. Not sure.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned- no pellets.

Can you define/quantify on a per rabbit basis maybe "a ton of greens"?

I do give 1 piece of veggie/fruit every day- we're talking a 1/4 inch slice of apple or zucchini, or 1 BABY carrot or 1 small radish (with the top)- I can certainly cut that out since they prefer the greens & I am often cleaning out dry shriveled up zucchini or radish. I just gave the veggies for variety & color.

You should not be feeding anything wilted or dried out. These things will certainly cause poopy butt. If it's not fresh enough for you, it's not fresh enough for the buns.

MaggieJ":t0eixi0d said:

The problem may be with the types of fresh foods. While I see no harm in giving small quantities of the fruits and veggies you mention, rabbits are herbivores not vegetarians and in the wild would be eating mainly leaves of weeds, grasses and bark and twigs from trees.

If you intend to continue with veggies and fruits other than as an occasional treat, you may want to read on some of the house rabbit websites on how to manage this without the rabbits getting poopy butt. You might find this one useful for troubleshooting poopy butt issues:
https://www.binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/Di ... fault.aspx

Lots of hay helps and you've heard me time after time extol the virtues of raspberry/blackberry/strawberry leaves as well as plantain and shepherd's purse. I know you were having trouble finding some of these in your area.

I recall that you were hoping to go pelletless for the rabbits. This is going to be difficult to do if you do not have access to a source of good weeds in abundance. You may have to feed at least some pellets until you get a plan in place and have some plants well established for the the rabbits' use.

Click to expand...

Ok, I will eliminate the veggies. The 3wk old litter has no problems- just a little bit of softer stool for mom. As I mentioned it will be no problem in doing so.

How do you store the plantain, etc? Do you dehydrate them? Is this something you feed daily? or just as a medicinal when you have a problem?

I thought my list of greens was pretty long & varied. There are others I just haven't researched enough to see if they are ok. Are you saying that I can't feed greens from the farmers market & provide enough nutrition? I have to feed weeds to get enough? I'm not sure i will ever be in the position here (at this house) to grow enough weeds to feed the rabbits. I figure if I am buying something it might as well be healthy greens & alfalfa hay vs processed pellets. Now I'm not so sure. :? I guess what I really need to know is the volume of greens appropriate for each rabbit. That way I can determine if i can grow enough to support them.

I have been successfully feeding my dogs raw for 11 years- no kibble- and i never would have imagined that rabbits were so complicated. :|

The only reason the rabbits seem complicated is because they eat such a huge variety of plants, whereas your dogs eat perhaps half a dozen types of animals. So the learning curve for rabbits is steeper and longer.

What I suggest is this. Find a good quality pellet for now and make this the mainstay of your rabbits' diet for the next few months. Supplement with a good grass hay for fibre - good for GI tract and teeth. Give treat portions of very fresh weeds and leafy greens (not iceberg lettuce) and treat portions of the other veggies and fruits. Spend the next few months getting acquainted with all the ins and outs of natural feeding and then, if you still want to do it, gradually transition your rabbits over a period of about two months. This is what I do if I have to bring in a new rabbit, as I did last year when my herd sire died suddenly.

Plantain, shepherd's purse, raspberry/blackberry/strawberry leaves are all healthy foods for your rabbits but they have the added virtue of regulating their poops. They will not constipate but they will firm up loose stools.

If you can get a good source of legume hay such as alfalfa or clover, you should be able to feed your rabbits naturally, once you get some bunny plants well established. Hay is the foundation of a natural diet. Grass hay for fibre and alfalfa hay for protein if the rabbits are not already getting it in pellets. As you phase in alfalfa hay (during the transition) you phase out the pellets by gradually adding whole grain (wheat, oats, barley) and decreasing the pellets. You increase the amounts of greens as you go. You do everything slowly and gradually and you watch for any signs of problems. We can talk more about this when you actually transition your rabbits.

There is another good rabbit board on Homesteading Today. There are several stickies at the top with tons of information about natural feeding. This site is only 6 months old and many of us were regular posters on HT long before RabbitTalk was thought of, so the information is there for the reading. I strongly suggest you check it out!
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/forumd ... rune=&f=14

MaggieJ":3ru8uwkx said:

You should not be feeding anything wilted or dried out. These things will certainly cause poopy butt. If it's not fresh enough for you, it's not fresh enough for the buns.

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I NEVER said I was feeding anything wilted or dried out!

What I said was, "I am often cleaning out [of the cage] dry shriveled up zucchini or radish" Because the rabbits don't eat them. They prefer the greens.

My schedule [so no one thinks I am feeding my buns garbage]: EVERY NIGHT after work I go out & give a huge pile of greens [from the refrigerator & rinsed in ice water so they will be cold & a little wet since it is HOT here) along with ONE 1"x 2" square (approximately) piece (1/4 inch thick) of ONE of the following veggies- zucc/cantaloupe rind/radish/carrot to each cage. I give ad lib whole oats/BOSS (2/3:1/3) to the moms & babies and about 1/2-3/4 cup to the Buck. I remove any remaining food from the day before & add more/move the hay around to keep things neat and replenish alfalfa hay cubes (I like to keep 7-8 available at all times). I move the perch I put in for mom back to its corner & fill water bottles as well. I also push poop off the boards into the gutter then from the gutter into the bucket. If the bucket is full then it is emptied, if not it is topped off with pine pellets to keep the contents dry so flies don't develop.

EVERY MORNING I give fresh hay & remove any leftover veggie pieces from the night before.

What I am really asking is -- How Much/Many GREENS Should I Be Feeding? on a per rabbit basis? Obviously every bunny is different but is there a guideline? For dogs it is about 2% of adult body weight. I am looking for something like this for rabbits. Does it exist? Anybody know?

eta: AHHH. the bit about cleaning out...I read that as cleaning out the FRIDGE!! I thought thatwas a bit odd since you are so careful with the dogs' food, and so concerned about the rabbits! Please forgive any offense given. It certainly wasn't intended.

anyway:

Rabbits seem to be hard for a human to balance nutrition for them. They have that cecum that creates the cecotropes..and that is where they get their major nutrition from. It seems that the intestines absorb some proteins/fats/carbs, and then the food goes into the cecum,where it's mixed with the bacteria that is there, and turned into cecotropes, with the right vitamins/mineral mix for bunny health. They expel the cecotropes and eat them to get that finished nutrition. THEN anything leftover goes into the waste and is expelled as pellets. At least,I think that's how it works.

Extra protein means they don't eat the cecotropes, by the way.

Greens...I put a 5gallon bucket stuffed with dandelions, plantain, grasses, apple branches and mulberry in the colony of 4 does and 15 6week old kits. There will also be a pile of alfalfa over in the corner (about a a flake 2x a week) They also have barley/oats/wheat/pellets mix (pretty much equal parts). They will graze on the greens all morning.

The NZ in the cages get a large handful of the grass/dandelion/plantain, plus a mulberry branch or apple branch in the morning. (I like to feed the dew-y grasses).

They don't really NEED the greens...but fresh greens do give them all kinds of nutrients and minerals. Calcium, vitamin A, C, oh golly. heh..It also gives them something to do instead of sitting around thinking up ingenious ways to attack the cage door

The rabbit pellets are all some folks feed at all. And they report rabbits doing well. There are others who insist you must give hay (any fiber rabbit has to have hay because of the waythey self groom and the long hair gets all balled up inside without the fiber..unless you feed papaya enzyme which dissolves the hair)

Feeding naturally is part science and part art. You learn from your particular rabbit what it can and can not tolerate. You use what you have available.

I'm sorry... I do apologize. I certainly misunderstood! And that's a relief.

Regarding the quantity of fresh foods, it depends on what else you are feeding. I believe the house rabbit people feed about two cups per day per adult rabbit... but they are not breeding theirs and many are neutered. Most are also feeding timothy hay and some pellets. I'm no expert on house rabbits and house rabbit people are the only ones I know who rely heavily on veggies for fresh feed instead of gathered greens.

I take a five gallon bucket out and fill it with a wide variety of weeds, grasses, safe tree leaves and twigs and occasional herbs/garden produce. I push it down some, but not so much that the greens are bruised... just to eliminate air spaces. This feeds my six rabbits and normally it is all gone before morning. They also get free-choice hay (alfalfa/grass mix) and about 1/4 to 1/3 cup of whole grain - barley, oats, wheat. Does nursing kits are fed free choice and when there are weaned litters I have to pick several gallons more greens. This is fairly time consuming. I'm not saying you have to do this... just that this is how I feed my rabbits.

I hope this is helpful. It seems to me that most people drift into natural feeding and their rabbits make the transition easily enough that way. It is only through experience that one can "get a feel" for what the rabbits need and that is why I suggest you feed a pellet diet in the short term, so you can be sure the rabbits are getting enough nutrients.

it's an art different rabbits eat different amounts too

if I fed Franklin his fresh all at one sitting he'd be ill

Niobe can easily handle as much as Franklin and maybe more (and he's half franklin's size)


it's something to develop a feel for by regularly picking up (or ideally wieghing) your rabbits to make sure they are still in good condition

okay so you feed no pellets, and you buy the greens for your bunnies, and what you are noticing are soft poops. (that things in a nutshell right?)

you know what... other than the BOSS and the "zucc/cantaloupe rind/radish/carrot" I can't see what you would be doing that you shouldn't. When I give my cantelope etc, I do note that they are more prone to poopy butt particularly the kits. Most won't eat zucc or radish, and carrot is like giving them a piece of sugar.

Do you have access to trees at all? willow? apple etc? You might want to add branches to their list of variables.

I would focus on the grains and greens/hay mix. Lay off the zucc/cantaloupe rind/radish/carrot as a once or twice a week thing only, and do the same with the BOSS.

okay so you feed no pellets, and you buy the greens for your bunnies, and what you are noticing are soft poops. (that things in a nutshell right?)

you know what... other than the BOSS and the "zucc/cantaloupe rind/radish/carrot" I can't see what you would be doing that you shouldn't. When I give my cantelope etc, I do note that they are more prone to poopy butt particularly the kits. Most won't eat zucc or radish, and carrot is like giving them a piece of sugar.

Do you have access to trees at all? willow? apple etc? You might want to add branches to their list of variables.

I would focus on the grains and greens/hay mix. Lay off the zucc/cantaloupe rind/radish/carrot as a once or twice a week thing only, and do the same with the BOSS.

also some rabbits react to specific greens with softer poop - dandelion can be a culprit there so maybe try cutting out some specific type of weed and see if that helps

Anntann":3etgyp76 said:

Extra protein means they don't eat the cecotropes, by the way.

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I think this may be the problem. I saw many more uneaten cecotropes this past week. I think this is what is getting squished on the wire. Since I have cut back on the greens the last 2 days things are much better.

If I offer both Alfalfa & Coastal hay will they choose the one they need? or will they just go for the one they like? I can rotate them daily I suppose. Up until now I have been very generous with the feeding because she is nursing 5 kits & they are eating her food too. I guess one can go overboard feeding a nursing mom.

As always, thanks for the input!

I've been putting both in with my rabbits, and they'll eat each like ..hmm...browzing on a buffet at a cocktail party. A little here..then a little there.

ladysown":xesgfdq4 said:

okay so you feed no pellets, and you buy the greens for your bunnies, and what you are noticing are soft poops. (that things in a nutshell right?)

Click to expand...

Yes, except I found squished poop stuck to the wire in her poop corner & assumed it was soft because it stuck. Looking back I saw many more than normal cecotropes than in the past week or so & there is still plenty of "normal" poop on the boards. So perhaps the stuck poop is not really soft poop but is instead, uneaten cecotropes (still an issue I know).

ladysown":xesgfdq4 said:

Do you have access to trees at all? willow? apple etc? You might want to add branches to their list of variables.

Click to expand...

Sadly my property is very limited in trees. I have Live Oak & a Water Oak (if Oak saplings or acorns are okay then I am in business ) I have Palms- tons of palms & palmettos. I have a Golden Rain tree (Koelreuteria elegans) & I have Ligustrum in a hedge & I am more than willing to feed it to the buns if it is safe. My problem is I have absolutely NO knowledge of plants & I am terrified that I will feed my rabbits something that will kill them. From what I can tell the Ligustrum berries are used in TCM but that's all I found so far.

I want to find something that I can use because I know they need to chew on the wood for their teeth (a friend actually buys pine boards (untreated of course) for her buns). At the end of blueberry season I will be able to get a ton of blueberry bushes/twigs but that's a couple months away...

Thanks for the input!

__________ Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:24 am __________

Brody":xesgfdq4 said:

also some rabbits react to specific greens with softer poop - dandelion can be a culprit there so maybe try cutting out some specific type of weed and see if that helps

Click to expand...

You may be right about the Dandelion. I was so excited to finally find it that i may have fed a little more than I should this past week. It was the newest addition to the diet. In my research last night I saw that it can cause some softer stools.

Thanks!<br /><br />__________ Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:36 am __________<br /><br />

MaggieJ":xesgfdq4 said:

There is another good rabbit board on Homesteading Today. There are several stickies at the top with tons of information about natural feeding. This site is only 6 months old and many of us were regular posters on HT long before RabbitTalk was thought of, so the information is there for the reading. I strongly suggest you check it out!
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/forumd ... rune=&f=14

Click to expand...

I was reading this last night & I noticed back in '08 you were mixing your grains with a little blackstrap & sunflower oil & salt. Are you still doing this? If so why & if not why not? I didn't get thru the whole thread yet so if you explain later on you can just tell me & I'll read it there. No need to repeat yourself here.

I have made my own grain mix of whole oats-66% & BOSS-33% (so I am stuck with the the BOSS for a while). The buns preferentially eat the oats anyway but I wonder if I should be adding a little molasses for the minerals??

What about calf manna? On another group everyone extols the virtues of calf manna. I saw it at the feed store & it is a pellet so I didn't buy it. Is this something that anyone here uses to grow their babes & keep does in condition?

As always, thanks for your help!

I use the molasses mix if I have a particularly hungry litter. Some just seem to need a bit more. I also use it from time to time in winter during extreme cold spells, just for an energy boost and because greens are limited when there is snow on the ground.

I've never used calf manna... I've heard good things about it from others though.

One way you can get a fast crop of greens is to grow grain grass in containers. I do this in winter. I get dollar store plastic dishpans (the rectangular ones will sit on a wide windowsill) and put about 2 inches of soil in the bottom. I don't bother with drainage. Then I sow wheat, oats, rye or barley very heavily. It sprouts in only a couple of days and in about 2 weeks you can harvest it with scissors and feed it to the buns. It will be about 8 inches high by then. Usually I can get about three harvests before I need to replant it. You will need several pans to have an ongoing supply but this is cheap and easy. You could do the same outdoors, in a garden bed or containers. Grain grasses are very nutritious and the rabbits love them.

Can you grow sweet potatoes? The vines are edible for rabbits. Very rich, so feed in moderation, but again it is a plant you can cut for them repeatedly.

Ha! I have a sweet potato that started sprouting in my house & it is so vigorous (& it was from the organic market) so i decided to plant it. i haven't done so yet but I did buy a container to get it started. but then my brown thumb kicked in...do just stick the whole potato in the soil? Or should i let some stick up?

Also, last week i finally was able to mow (my mower was down for 2 weeks prior) & my neighbor was concurrently having her hay field harvested & it got me thinking. The grass left on my lawn looked just like her hay. I was very tempted to rake it up & feed it...only I have 3 dogs 7 i wondered if i needed to be concerned about parasite transmission from the dog waste. I hope/my dogs don't have parasites but I know there can be transmissions & secondary hosts for some things so I left the grass. Anybody know about this?

Thanks!